Writing workshops suck, and other tales of woe

[ecosophia]

Last night we had dinner out with friends, followed by a very pleasant evening sitting around the apartment with snacks and drinks. Delightful all around, but one bit of conversation has me brooding this morning. 

One of our guests mentioned a relative who wrote several chapters of a very fine young adult novel. (The guest in question is a retired university professor with a crisp and highly readable prose style, so his judgment on the subject is tolerably reliable.) The aspiring author took this to a writing workshop, where -- inevitably -- the other participants tore it to shreds, and did so in such a way that by the time she got back from the writing workshop, she'd lost all confidence in the project and has never been able to finish it. 

This isn't the first time I've heard this kind of story. It's not even the hundred and first. I know, and know of, way too many people who could have become successful writers, but fell victim to one or another of the bloodstained traps that lie in wait for aspiring authors these days, and will probably never manage to haul themselves out again, bind their wounds, and find their way into print. Some of those traps are internal, personal issues -- but some of them are not. 

I suppose in theory that it's possible to benefit from the kind of writing workshops where a circle of aspiring writers sit around and critique each other's work. I've never met anyone who did. My takeaway from my few personal encounters with such things, and a vast number of tales of woe I've heard, is that your fellow participants in such a writing workshop aren't your friends -- they're your competitors, and they will gladly trample you into the bloody muck in order to clamber over your corpse toward the same goal you're seeking. 

Part of why I'm brooding over this is because my coeditor and I just announced the list of stories that will be appearing in Vintage Worlds, an anthology of science fiction set in the imaginary solar system of mid-20th century space opera -- think canals on Mars, jungles on Venus, humanoid aliens all over the place, and so on. We got a lot of good stories, a lot of so-so stories, and a lot of stories by people who want to write but haven't had the opportunity to learn how. And of course I also got a flurry of requests from people whose stories didn't get picked, asking me for personal critiques of their work. 

I'm never sure what to say in response. It's fairly easy to figure out whether a story works or doesn't work -- you just read the thing -- but to explain to an aspiring author why a failed story failed is hard work, involving a lot of time and personal attention, and far more often than not, all that happens is that the aspiring author either melts down on you, or tries to argue you into changing your mind. Thus I tend to back away nervously from the whole subject. 

There are two very common and equally straightforward reasons why stories don't get picked, by the way. The first is that the author didn't pay attention to the call for story submissions, and sent something in that isn't what the editors are looking for. The second is that the author hasn't learned the basic elements of English prose style. The first can be solved by reading the call for submissions and taking every word seriously, remembering that playing rebel without a clue is the fastest way to have your story chucked into the dumpster. The second can be solved just as easily by picking up a copy of Strunk and White's The Elements of Style, reading it, and going through your story with an editor's blue pen, marking every place where your prose doesn't follow the Strunk and White principles. (Can you break the rules? Sure, but first know what the rules are, and break them deliberately for effect, not just because you don't know any better.) 

I've seen people go from unpublished to published by the simple application of those two fixes. That said, there's much more to the craft of writing, and it would be helpful to have some constructive way to pass it on. The common or garden variety writing workshop, in my experience, is very nearly the worst possible way to do the thing -- but what would work? That's what I'm brooding about now. 

Comments

some ideas

[chaosadventurer]

There are writers who try to pass it forward and provide useful guidance that might be useful. Two sets I've seen are the podcasts of "I Should Be Writing"(ISBW) and "Writing Excuses" that might be worth checking out for those whom are trying to level up their writing. Their focus is on SF&F fiction, but much of what they applies to other fiction and I find it has even helped my non-fiction technical writing. Also they are very entertaining even if, like me, you aren't a fiction writer but read plenty.
"I Should Be Writing" is also out as a book and "Writing Excuses" has won a Hugo award.
http://murverse.com/subscribe-to-podcasts/podcasts/
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/32941417-i-should-be-writing
http://www.writingexcuses.com/

SF&F conventions often have writer panels that can be one way to hear what others have to say about various aspects of the craft. You can even ask them questions, but first get a feel for what other questions are being asked. There are many such conventions(cons) around, though it can be a challenge to tell the media focused conventions from the literary focused ones. The trick to tell them apart is who are the focus of the guests, all or mostly Authors is what you want to look for, the ones with professional Cos-players are just for the visual candy.

and always, the link to
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elements_of_Style

Re: some ideas

[ecosophia]

Many thanks for these. I learned a fair amount from panels at science fiction conventions back in the day -- I gafiated from the fan scene in the mid-1980s, but did as many cons as I could conveniently get to before then -- though I also got some very bad ideas that took a while to outgrow.

Re: some ideas

[(Anonymous)]

Were you also in SCA? I haven't heard anyone else use the verb "to gafiate." :-) -Dewey

Re: some ideas

[ecosophia]

For a while in my teens, yes, but that's not where the word comes from, or where I got it. It's out of science fiction fandom, where iirc it was being used in the late 1940s if not earlier; it comes from the acronym GAFIA, "Get Away From It All." (SF fandom is full of acronyms like that. You may encounter the two contending words of power FIAWOL and FIJAGH; FIAWOL means "Fandom Is A Way Of Life," and FIJAGH, "Fandom Is Just A Goddamn Hobby.")

Re: some ideas

[chaosadventurer]

Glad to have shared. Hope that all who try them enjoy them and learn from them as much as I have.
Yes SF panels do have to be taken with a grain of salt as some authors who can spew lots of wonderful fiction don't really understand what is just natural to them. One panel on how to deal with the blank page included an author who doesn't have that problem such that other authors on the panel asked why he was there. Panel arrangers just can't know all that is needed for best choices for all panel, sigh. Still can be both educational and enjoyable at the same time.

Another author/teacher who comes to mind as a useful writing reference is http://alyxdellamonica.com/truths-2/
Fun to interact annually with her at http://www.ad-astra.org/

Not surprising that some know gafiation as SCA giving the huge cross over between SF&F with SCA. Used to the saying, just not the word in my local groups and fun reading up its historic use and how many contexts it can be used.

learning to write

[(Anonymous)]

I once read a series of interviews of successful mystery writers. One of them, I don't recall who, said that he read a published story, put it aside and rewrote it, then compared his version with the original to see where he had gone wrong. I believe that Raymond Chandler used a similar approach when he started. Of course, he had a good English college education to build on. It is important to read widely in the genre you intend to write. And to like that genre--i.e. it is seldom effective to read one romance, decide that "any fool can write this trash" and head for the computer. Lawrence Block's _Telling Lies for Fun and Profit_ is a guide to aspiring author that I enjoyed reading. L

Re: learning to write

[ecosophia]

Oh, granted. This is true of nonfiction genres as well; I was able to get into print as a writer of occult nonfiction, despite some serious problems with my writing, because I'd been marinating my brain in occultism from my early teens on and knew the genre inside and out. I'm hoping that my lack of enthusiasm for recent fashions in fantasy fiction doesn't get too massively in the way of being able to publish the fantasies I want to write!

Two suggestions with $$$

[(Anonymous)]

What would work is to actually PAY people to do the hard work of editorial analysis and sensitive but surgically precise criticism. Similarly for placement of stories. It is a full time job to understand where a particular story can be placed. Few people have the talent and skill to write to fulfill editorial wish lists, often vague and having unspecified, unwritten requirements such as a glooooomy tone or a smoky, snarky glee; however many people have a story or two they wish to tell but do not know where to sell. An agent who represents a stable of paying amateurs by doing the work of seeking out markets and making suggestions for placement would be to everyone’s benefit. Also the agent could be paid to retrofit the text of stories to meet various publishers style req’s which are often tediously different from one another.

A subscription model for paying skilled editors and agents to serve the needs of new writers could follow the same practice as paying a doctor or lawyer on retainer. For educating others to become good editors, a small, brave group of writers could agree to having their work analyzed in a semi-private theatre of operation, like medical demonstrations online, via email or closed circle private forums available only to paid-up subscribers.

Another method that might work is to actually publish the slush pile in small volumes or as serial magazines. If the paid editors grade the works into coarse, medium and fine gravel, and e-publish five or so each week, then the authors get to see their work ‘in print’ and compare their own skill level with those who surpass them. Learning by example as in the one-room schoolroom.

Re: Two suggestions with $$$

[ecosophia]

Perhaps, but once you get into authors paying money for services like that, the predators gather; "we'll review your manuscript for a fee" scams are another of the bloodstained bear traps that wait for aspiring writers. As for agents -- well, let's put it this way; I've got more than fifty books in print and I haven't yet been able to get an agent to give me the time of day. I'd like to work with a literary agency -- alongside the advantage of being able to place titles with the big dogs of the publishing workd, I've got a lot of titles in my backlist with publishers who have no clue about foreign rights, and I also need to be able to specify an agency to handle my literary estate, as my wife and I have no heirs (the income from my books, once we're gone, will be going to support free language therapy for children) -- but that interest apparently isn't shared by agents. I suspect it's because I've mostly published with small to midsize publishers, and I get the impression that most agents look down their very long noses at those.

Re: Two suggestions with $$$

[(Anonymous)]

Yes, you are quite correct about the way agents and editors are structured today to suck blood from authors not help them. I was not thinking about the New Shyark pro scene, but more like a co-op or lodge where a much smaller outlay is asked from each author who joins a writer’s club or even a lodge. Then the club or lodge screens and hires a couple of decent people to do the work of editing or agentry—maybe part-time or less. They could be students even or retired people who need a little more cash than they are getting otherwise. But they would have to be *known* to the club member, and, like doctors, develop a mutuality and collegial relationship with the people they serve. Not just a cold business transaction. I suppose it is a pipe dream—the details will let in the printer’s devils---but to have vertical integration with a lodge-owned printing press and an apprenticeship for bookmakers, etc...(sigh).

learning to write, cont.

[(Anonymous)]

I hit publish too soon.

I did belong for a while to a writing group once that has produced two published writers. One is James Rollins--who has achieved the "quit your day job" goal with his techno thrillers. M. Todd Gallowglas hasn't been as successful yet, but one of his self-published series of dark fantasy has been picked up and reissued by an actual publisher. So it can happen. I didn't get much out of the group--my work didn't fit the sci-fi or fantasy mold very well. Didn't do my ambitions any harm, but then anyone who has survived a dissertation defense is probably on the way to bulletproof.

It has been my experience that groups of already successful writers are less brutal. I belong to Sisters in Crime. The members seem genuinely happy for one another's successes and the meetings are full of helpful information. I think there are similar groups for non-mystery writers.

Rita

Re: learning to write, cont.

[ecosophia]

I've been told that all-women groups are also considerably less noxious than mixed groups, so that may also be a factor with Sisters in Crime.

[(Anonymous)]

I generally found the writing workshops in college quite helpful, but I think I got lucky in that my classmates were all quite gentle with one another. I suppose a workshop formula could work if there was a set of ground rules--no critiques until the first draft was completed, don't bring your beloved novel baby to workshop, that sort of thing--but it would take some trial and error to figure it out.

Maybe the best approach would be to critique the work of authors outside the group. Something more like a book club, but with a focus on the writing. There's plenty of amature writing available online, so participants could learn to recognize common mistakes and cliches without getting their own work shredded. It would probably be good to examine the work of successful authors as well, just to get a feel for good writing. I think most of the nastiness that comes up in writing workshop happens because people feel threatened and lash out. If nobody's project is on the chopping block, then nobody much reason or opportunity to put other members down.

Could work. I wonder if anyone's already tried it?

[ecosophia]

That might indeed work.

[(Anonymous)]

Oh yes, coaching writing is an incredibly tricky and time-consuming job. Many teachers are driven to despair by the task of responding to a pile of student writing in a substantive way! Teachers at all levels sometimes use workshop structures to both enable students to receive feedback on their work and learn to read others' work closely and respond constructively. These are skills that need to be taught and practiced, though- why would we assume that just because someone is trying to write, they would know how to respond sensitively and perceptively to their peers' writing? After all, a group of writers in a room is just a microcosm of society, though perhaps one self-selected to enjoy hearing their own thoughts discussed a bit more than the norm.

In my experience, the workshop structure works best in a group that has already developed strong norms of trust and civility (much like the sense of community that develops among many commenters on JMG's well-moderated blogs). Further, when you perceive a lot of room for improvement in someone's writing, it can be difficult to know where to begin and end your (hopefully) constructive criticism. Chances for a successful exchange are improved when there is either a focus supplied by the instructor or facilitator (for younger or less experienced writers- e.g. Dialog day, or opening scenes), or when the presenter is expected to be specific about what aspect(s) of the work s/he is seeking feedback on at the time (for writers who are experienced enough to know where they need help).

In my own writing work, I've had the best experiences with small groups- no more than four- and when there was a built-in mechanism for review of the process (How did we do as a group today? What's our next goal?). These features promote accountability in the members. Otherwise, people who show up unprepared or who are unfocused or unengaged during the meeting can really sap the energy of the group, scuttling the whole process.

As for writers on writing, my favorite is Anne Lamott's "Bird By Bird". The concept of giving yourself permission, nay expectation, to write a sh*tty first draft, alone was worth the purchase price for me. Obviously since this was a revelation for me, I didn't have much good writing instruction myself prior to being thrown in the deep end in grad school. Not surprising, given how hard it is to deliver!

One experienced responder can make a world of difference to a developing writer, but I agree with the commenter above that this work needs to be compensated somehow- it's intense. If you really want to respond to a huge pile of manuscripts without dedicating your entire life to the task, a standard rubric of common, important features, with ample room for comments, can reduce the complexity of the task for the reviewer- subject, of course, to all the inherent dangers of simplification.

Hope this is helpful.

--Heather in CA

--Heather in CA

[ecosophia]

It is indeed. Thank you.

One more thought...

[(Anonymous)]

JMG, in your vast free time, I'm sure you could add to your income stream by moderating a subscription-based forum for aspiring writers. You could develop some workshop-like exercises à la Mystery Teachings, and enforce your particular brand of commenter discipline. It might work best and be most manageable with a tight focus- e.g. writers who want to sell SF short stories.

I loved Fires of Shalsha, by the way- probably my favorite of all your fiction. I wanted to read a whole series set in that world. I was surprised to hear that it only sold modestly. I think I'll go buy a copy to donate to my local library right now. :)

--Heather in CA

Re: One more thought...

[ecosophia]

If I had an extra twenty-four hours in a day, no doubt! If I did it, though, I'd probably want to focus on writing nonfiction, as that's where my main success has been. Until at least one of my novels outsells my more specialized nonfiction -- none of them have, though of course that's at least in part because they're with small publishers who have no marketing presence worth mentioning -- I may not be the right person to teach science fiction or fantasy.

Thank you for your enthusiasm for The Fires of Shalsha! For what it's worth, I began a sequel set in the same world about twenty years further on, titled Journey Star; I haven't done much with it since the initial burst of writing, but I may get a bug up and finish it one of these days.

Re: One more thought...

[jpc2]

Sign me up for a copy... I've returned to 'The Fires of Shalsha' at leas annually.

A couple of books I found useful back when I actually had to write something other than computer code were: 'Writing to Learn' and 'On Writing Well' by William Zinsser. (To bad I've forgotten most of it.)

Shalsha sequel

[(Anonymous)]

I'll keep my fingers crossed, then. ;)

Re: Shalsha sequel

[ecosophia]

Duly noted! I'm probably going to have to write it one of these days anyway, as the frame of the sequel is too tempting to neglect -- do you recall the Outrunners, the protein-starved bands who live out past the fringes of settlement on Eridan? The main character, Asha, is a fourteen-year-old Outrunner girl who survives the final defeat of her people. Issues of genocide become a good deal more complex when the society that's destroyed has cannibalism as a central spiritual as well as nutritional theme, and has been preying for two hundred years on the society that destroys it -- but then I'm fond of moral complexity in my stories, of course. From there, well, there are plenty of plot twists and a denouement that I think readers will find both surprising and satisfying. But I have to find time to write it, of course.

[(Anonymous)]

Hi JMG,

What would work? That's a great question, and if you come up with something I'd love to hear about it...

Maybe I should bring this up on the Open Thread instead, but it's relevant to what you're talking about here.

I recently had an experience sharing my work with several friends and I have no idea what to do with it. About a year ago I wrote a sword and sorcery novella in the vein of Robert E. Howard. I wrote the thing in a weekend in a fit of inspiration, and then set it aside. About a month ago I came back to it, reworked it a bit, and decided it was my best work to date. I asked several friends for their opinions.

Friend 1 works in TV production. He's trained as a filmmaker and writes screenplays. Friend 1 loved the story, pronouncing it "very professional, very publishable." Friend 1 is my age (30s) and I've known him since childhood. He doesn't read much fantasy in general but is the type of Tolkien fan that has reread the Silmarillion multiple times; that seems relevant to his ability to judge work in the genre.

Friend 2 is a published writer. He had some success with a YA novel some years ago. More recently he had a novel in manuscript optioned for a lot of money by people in Hollywood. However the manuscript remains unpublished-- he tells me that the various publishing houses passed it around, saying they wanted a bestseller and weren't sure if it would be a hit or not. Friend 2 is in his 70s.

Given Friend 1's reaction, I was prepared for Friend 2, who is someone I admire, to react similarly, and to acknowledge me as Also A Writer. Instead Friend 2 tore the thing to pieces, telling me that the first half was a complete bore, he could tell it was written quickly, and he couldn't bring himself to finish it. Now, being mindful of the tendency you described above of aspiring writers to react badly to this sort of thing, I did the opposite, and assumed that Mr. 2 was absolutely right in his assessment. Friend 2 does not read fantasy or science fiction, only literary fiction, and is the type of person who says things like "That's why most great writers are atheists." Nevertheless, as I said, I deferred to his opinions, given his experience. He had said at one point "You absolutely cannot send this out," and I decided not to tell him I had already done so.

At this point I was dreading hearing back from Friend 3, who may be reading this. Friend 3 enjoyed it a great deal, calling it "excellent." Friend 3 is a writer of somewhat more advanced skills and publication credit than myself, and both reads and writes in the genre; Friend 3 is a bit younger than me. At this point, though, I'd completely lost confidence in the thing. I restrained myself from writing back and saying "You are wrong, Friend 3, it is terrible." And then I further restrained myself from writing back and saying, "Don't humor me, Friend 3, this is awful work and we both know it." Actually I haven't written Friend 3 back at all, and it's been a month, and if you're reading this, Violet, well, now you know why you haven't heard from me...

Friend 2 wasn't being deliberately cruel as far as I can tell, and didn't act like a competitor at a writing workshop. Instead, he said, "If I didn't think you had talent I would just tell you 'It's good work, best of luck to you.' But I know you're going to make it as a writer so I'm going to tell you what's wrong with it.'"

The last thing that happened is I heard back from the magazine I'd sent it off to, a big name in the genre. A form rejection, which didn't surprise or bother me. Upon doing a bit of research, though, it turns out the editor uses a couple of different templates for his form rejections, depending on why he rejected the story. And it turns out that this was actually a high-level rejection, indicating that the editor read the thing to the end, but that something about that ending didn't work for him. Which still leaves an unpublished story, but it's a different reaction from "completely boring until page 25."

So... Where does this leave me? At this point I have basically no idea what I've written. I've been afraid to go back and touch the thing, because I don't know if it's good, or if it's terrible, or what would make it better. Given a situation like that, what would you do?

-Steve T

[ecosophia]

Ignore Friend 2. Writers and fans of literary fiction are by and large unbearable snobs when it comes to popular genres -- have a look at Edmund Wilson's famously snotty review of J.R.R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings; you may just recognize the tone. By and large -- again, there are noble exceptions -- they like to treat the conventions of their own genre ("serious literature") as adamantine laws governing all writing everywhere, and the fact that other genres have other conventions, to them, simply means that other genres are lowbrow trash. Such differences exist between all genres -- if you'd written the kind of serious literary short story that belongs in a little magazine put out by a university English department, and sent it to a writer of sword and sorcery stories, you probably wouldn't get back a helpful critique, either -- but people in most other genres more often recognize that it's a matter of genre differences, and make allowances for that.

My working guess, given what I know of friend #3's talent and tastes, is that the story's pretty good. My advice? Get it in the mail to the next magazine on your list, and then get to work on something new.

[(Anonymous)]

Thank you JMG. This is what I needed to hear, as I'm sure you knew...

I actually majored in fiction writing in college. I regard the experience as a complete waste of money and time. I learned very little about writing the sort of thing I like to write, and spent a great deal of time being sneered at by professors who despised what they called "genre fiction." The major exception was the guy who taught my final seminar, my senior year. He was extremely supportive of my work and dedicated almost an entire class to talking about a story I'd written, which was a "sword and starship" type of sci fi thing. He was also a successful writer and the head of the department-- i.e., he had no one above him to impress by trampling on the proles.

I didn't expect the same thing of the guy I'm calling Friend #2, given that he's my friend, but I suppose I should have known better. When you put a dollar in a coke machine you shouldn't be surprised when it doesn't spit out a cup of coffee.

[(Anonymous)]

Couldn't agree more. I earn most of my money writing today, but early on I had a choice: take a very junior position at a well respected magazine, or subject myself to the sort of workshopping horror that is graduate school. The latter was the supposed path to success, but lucky for me I didn't end up getting into graduate school and took the low position and learned on the job.

Along with Strunk and White, I'd highly recommend Garners Modern American usage: http://www.lawprose.org/bryan-garner/books-by-bryan-garner/garners-modern-english-usage-4th-edition-2016/

[ecosophia]

Thanks for the recommendation! I'll check Garner's out. I tend to recommend Strunk and White reflexively because it's short, cheap, easy to use, and covers the ground fairly well, but having other arrows in the quiver is a good thing. As for grad school, I managed to dodge that bullet as well, though in my case it was a lack of money, an unwillingness to take on debt, and hearing about two very promising young academics who had their careers destroyed because they were too obviously interested in occultism.

[(Anonymous)]

Fascinating. The whole MFA world is so small and frankly full of sexual predators in the form of teachers, I'm surprised occult studies even raises an eyebrow. Of course I was applying, ahem, a few years, maybe even decades, ago now.

Whatever the case ecosophia readers, meditate long before considering an MFA.

[ecosophia]

Sexual predation is, ahem, "normal." It doesn't transgress against the basic claims about the nature of existence that have been glued into place since the materialists won the reality wars of the late Renaissance. It transgresses against essential ethical principles, sure, but our society is good at ignoring those anyway...

Law of Limits

[(Anonymous)]

So in other words, JMG, we see here the Law of Limits from Mystery Teachings, applied to the domain of writing and publishing. At the more local level, we have the limits of grammar and basic English prose style, while at the more global level, the limits of genre expectations and/or the expectations of particular publishers and editors. By working within these constraints (and occasionally, having first mastered them, violating them in a conscious and deliberate way), we are able to go on to a successful creative endeavour.

Relatedly, on your critique of writing workshops, it's been interesting to note how all of the "writing experts" I've known (people who make their living as writing professors at universities, and the like) have reacted to the suggestion that we might expect writers to learn and follow the basic rules of English grammar. They range from anger and indignation, to a condescending "you really don't get it." According to them, such rules will "get in the way of their creativity" and keep students from writing anything at all! Of course, the idea that grammar and style could actually facilitate creative expression (and for, that matter, effective communication) is intolerable and oppressive...

--barefootwisdom

Re: Law of Limits

[ecosophia]

Excellent! Ironically, that's exactly what the main character of my novel The Shoggoth Concerto has to face as she pursues her dream of composing neo-Baroque music -- professors and fellow students line up to tell her, in tones ranging from condescending to angry, how wrong she is, how arbitrary and meaningless and stifling the old Baroque forms are, and how she should dump them and express her unique creative vision by doing exactly what every other young composer is doing...

Re: Law of Limits

[peter_van_erp]

That is exactly the same in my profession: architecture. The only acceptable way to design is to throw out two and half millennia of evolution in Classical/Western architecture, and subject your clients to the horrors of the latest fad. When I suggest that our local Institution of advanced class signaling should build in a form that has served them well for 250 years, I am subject to withering looks. I do point out that the Broken Accordion will be as beloved in 40 years as the Science Library is today. We are currently being infected by a plague of ugly new buildings which will be readily identifiable as built in the late teens, about 5 years behind the cutting edge in NYC & London. The worst are the designs from the Vatican of American Architecture, the Harvard GSD. Not even a house renovation on College Hill is immune.
(PS to my fellow commenters/lurkers: I'm referring to Providence locations, as I also live in the home of Lovecraft)

Re: Law of Limits

[ecosophia]

I've long argued that there's nothing wrong with modern architecture that artillery couldn't fix. More seriously, of course you're right; the bizarre conviction that what's old is therefore disproven, and history is your enemy, pervades architecture just as it does all the other creative arts.

I sometimes wonder if there's a point in focusing some serious effort on the absurdity of that conviction. Sooner or later the trance has got to become vulnerable...

Too late?

[(Anonymous)]

Hi John Michael and everyone else,

I hope I'm not too late to slip a comment and question in here. If I am there's always the next ask-me-anything.

I also did a creative writing post-grad, about 10 years ago, and it pretty much did nothing for me (except that I happened to meet my long term partner that way, with whom I have two kids, but that's a separate issue!). However I don't think I can blame my confidence lack just on the course.

I think my mother subtly pressured me into the idea of being a writer (I have a theory that she wanted to herself but never tried due to her own chronic confidence issues, but I don't know for sure). She also not so subtly poured scorn on some of my genre reading choices as a young teenager such as Philip K Dick and some fantasy interests. She only wanted me reading classic and literary fiction. I also think there are other general life confidence issues there in the background.

The result is that I haven't really produced anything and I am in my mid thirties, but the desire to really clear the decks and make a proper try never quite leaves me. I have recently been pushing myself to write again, sometimes getting up at 5.30 to do so as there does not seem to be time otherwise. It is exciting when I manage, but also hard on my psyche, like a steel tight rope walk.

My question is...I seem to have always been capable of flashes of inspiration that take the form of phrases, single scenes, glowing glimmers of ideas and echoes of ideas, rather than concrete plots and characters. What comes to me is more akin to poetry or the makings of poetry perhaps, except I don't really read or want to write poetry. It is often very abstract and disparate, yet I feel there is meaning packed into it, but I don't know how to turn that into enough narrative for a story. I read conversations like this and I just envy you all that seem to be so full of actual STORIES, lots and lots of them, genre or literary or otherwise. Do you think this signifies that I'm just not cut out, or is it possible to learn to generate stories, characters and driving narrative which would give flesh to the sort of inspiration that naturally come to me? I could use some elements of style type-advice as I have writing flaws for sure, but what about elements of story and story-ideas advice?

Thank you so much for touching on yet another subject of great import to me!

Re: Too late?

[ecosophia]

Creating stories is very much a learned skill; it certainly wasn't innate in me. I'm currently brooding over a project here on Dreamwidth that might help teach that, but we'll see. In the meantime, do you read stories nowadays? If so, what kind?

Re: Too late?

[(Anonymous)]

Thanks so much for the reply JMG. That's good to hear you think it is a learned skill; I find learning new things hard, but I suppose most folk do to one extent or another and it's about having an ethic. I'd love it if you started a project here on that theme!

I do read a lot more fiction now, sytematically, after a lengthy period where I felt I had so much non-fiction to get through. For the reasons stated before I'm not really a genre reader, but have no problem with reading genre fiction if it's good (I've always loved the Dune series for instance). Recently I have been trying to plug some of the enormous gaps in the category of classic-novels-not-yet-read, and decided to narrow it down, rather arbitrarily it must be said, by nation, starting with Scotland (my own). So I'm reading Sunset Song now, to be followed shortly by Voyage to Arcturus which I think I got to via yourself (you've turned me on to some interesting fiction over the years...Glass Bead Game, Algernon Blackwood's John Silence stories...), then I'd like to read some German and Russian classic stuff (never read any Dostoyevsky for instance).

So I'm kind of casting the net wide...too wide from a craft learning point of view?

Re: Too late?

[ecosophia]

Not at all. As you read fiction -- especially when you reread the stories you enjoy -- pay close attention to the story: what happens when, how one event leads to another, what motivates the characters to do this and that. It's very much a matter of learning to think in the language of story; as you do that, you'll find that stories come very easily.

feedback

[druidtides]

Hi John, I admit to being one of the rejected authors looking for feedback. I sympathise with your dilemma and as I am a new fiction writer, I am scouring all the the sites with advice for better writing. Back to our one drop fallacy and the CGD path of finding a middle ground between providing (a) detailed feedback (and the angst it can generate) and (b) no feedback, perhaps a middle path would be workable for all. I was thinking of very simple feedback options, (a) storyline is interesting but quality is not there (b) storyline isn't interesting and quality is not there (c) storyline isn't interesting but quality is reasonable and (d) storyline is interesting but not appropriate for volume.

This could be a simple form filled out when reading a submission, and making it very clear that its not up for discussion. As second thought is for people who would like more detailed feedback, charge a editorial consulting fee for your time($50-$60). There are a lot of people who would pay for an hour of your time.

In the end, you and the editorial team are the publishers and get to make the call on what you like and what you choose and that's fair. What disturbed me the most was the lack of ANY feedback, even a automated "thank you for your submission". It doesn't encourage you to go back and work on your writing and stories when they go into a black hole. You got some of us excited to write and it may take us a few rounds to get something to the level needed.. The simple form feedback is enough for most of us to see where to focus and detailed feedback option becomes an extra source of income. Anyway, just my two centimes ;-)

Re: feedback

[ecosophia]

Fair enough, and I'll consider that. Such feedback is very uncommon in the publishing industry -- standard practice is that when you send something in to a publisher, if you get anything back at all (and for short pieces, very often you don't), it's a form letter that says:

"Dear Author,

"Thank you for your submission. We regret to say it does not fit our requirements at this time. We wish you the best of luck placing it elsewhere.

"Sincerely,

"The Editorial Staff."

I fielded dozens of these back in the day, and no doubt you will too.