Writing workshops suck, and other tales of woe

[ecosophia]

Last night we had dinner out with friends, followed by a very pleasant evening sitting around the apartment with snacks and drinks. Delightful all around, but one bit of conversation has me brooding this morning. 

One of our guests mentioned a relative who wrote several chapters of a very fine young adult novel. (The guest in question is a retired university professor with a crisp and highly readable prose style, so his judgment on the subject is tolerably reliable.) The aspiring author took this to a writing workshop, where -- inevitably -- the other participants tore it to shreds, and did so in such a way that by the time she got back from the writing workshop, she'd lost all confidence in the project and has never been able to finish it. 

This isn't the first time I've heard this kind of story. It's not even the hundred and first. I know, and know of, way too many people who could have become successful writers, but fell victim to one or another of the bloodstained traps that lie in wait for aspiring authors these days, and will probably never manage to haul themselves out again, bind their wounds, and find their way into print. Some of those traps are internal, personal issues -- but some of them are not. 

I suppose in theory that it's possible to benefit from the kind of writing workshops where a circle of aspiring writers sit around and critique each other's work. I've never met anyone who did. My takeaway from my few personal encounters with such things, and a vast number of tales of woe I've heard, is that your fellow participants in such a writing workshop aren't your friends -- they're your competitors, and they will gladly trample you into the bloody muck in order to clamber over your corpse toward the same goal you're seeking. 

Part of why I'm brooding over this is because my coeditor and I just announced the list of stories that will be appearing in Vintage Worlds, an anthology of science fiction set in the imaginary solar system of mid-20th century space opera -- think canals on Mars, jungles on Venus, humanoid aliens all over the place, and so on. We got a lot of good stories, a lot of so-so stories, and a lot of stories by people who want to write but haven't had the opportunity to learn how. And of course I also got a flurry of requests from people whose stories didn't get picked, asking me for personal critiques of their work. 

I'm never sure what to say in response. It's fairly easy to figure out whether a story works or doesn't work -- you just read the thing -- but to explain to an aspiring author why a failed story failed is hard work, involving a lot of time and personal attention, and far more often than not, all that happens is that the aspiring author either melts down on you, or tries to argue you into changing your mind. Thus I tend to back away nervously from the whole subject. 

There are two very common and equally straightforward reasons why stories don't get picked, by the way. The first is that the author didn't pay attention to the call for story submissions, and sent something in that isn't what the editors are looking for. The second is that the author hasn't learned the basic elements of English prose style. The first can be solved by reading the call for submissions and taking every word seriously, remembering that playing rebel without a clue is the fastest way to have your story chucked into the dumpster. The second can be solved just as easily by picking up a copy of Strunk and White's The Elements of Style, reading it, and going through your story with an editor's blue pen, marking every place where your prose doesn't follow the Strunk and White principles. (Can you break the rules? Sure, but first know what the rules are, and break them deliberately for effect, not just because you don't know any better.) 

I've seen people go from unpublished to published by the simple application of those two fixes. That said, there's much more to the craft of writing, and it would be helpful to have some constructive way to pass it on. The common or garden variety writing workshop, in my experience, is very nearly the worst possible way to do the thing -- but what would work? That's what I'm brooding about now. 

Comments

some ideas

[chaosadventurer]

There are writers who try to pass it forward and provide useful guidance that might be useful. Two sets I've seen are the podcasts of "I Should Be Writing"(ISBW) and "Writing Excuses" that might be worth checking out for those whom are trying to level up their writing. Their focus is on SF&F fiction, but much of what they applies to other fiction and I find it has even helped my non-fiction technical writing. Also they are very entertaining even if, like me, you aren't a fiction writer but read plenty.
"I Should Be Writing" is also out as a book and "Writing Excuses" has won a Hugo award.
http://murverse.com/subscribe-to-podcasts/podcasts/
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/32941417-i-should-be-writing
http://www.writingexcuses.com/

SF&F conventions often have writer panels that can be one way to hear what others have to say about various aspects of the craft. You can even ask them questions, but first get a feel for what other questions are being asked. There are many such conventions(cons) around, though it can be a challenge to tell the media focused conventions from the literary focused ones. The trick to tell them apart is who are the focus of the guests, all or mostly Authors is what you want to look for, the ones with professional Cos-players are just for the visual candy.

and always, the link to
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elements_of_Style

learning to write

[(Anonymous)]

I once read a series of interviews of successful mystery writers. One of them, I don't recall who, said that he read a published story, put it aside and rewrote it, then compared his version with the original to see where he had gone wrong. I believe that Raymond Chandler used a similar approach when he started. Of course, he had a good English college education to build on. It is important to read widely in the genre you intend to write. And to like that genre--i.e. it is seldom effective to read one romance, decide that "any fool can write this trash" and head for the computer. Lawrence Block's _Telling Lies for Fun and Profit_ is a guide to aspiring author that I enjoyed reading. L

Two suggestions with $$$

[(Anonymous)]

What would work is to actually PAY people to do the hard work of editorial analysis and sensitive but surgically precise criticism. Similarly for placement of stories. It is a full time job to understand where a particular story can be placed. Few people have the talent and skill to write to fulfill editorial wish lists, often vague and having unspecified, unwritten requirements such as a glooooomy tone or a smoky, snarky glee; however many people have a story or two they wish to tell but do not know where to sell. An agent who represents a stable of paying amateurs by doing the work of seeking out markets and making suggestions for placement would be to everyone’s benefit. Also the agent could be paid to retrofit the text of stories to meet various publishers style req’s which are often tediously different from one another.

A subscription model for paying skilled editors and agents to serve the needs of new writers could follow the same practice as paying a doctor or lawyer on retainer. For educating others to become good editors, a small, brave group of writers could agree to having their work analyzed in a semi-private theatre of operation, like medical demonstrations online, via email or closed circle private forums available only to paid-up subscribers.

Another method that might work is to actually publish the slush pile in small volumes or as serial magazines. If the paid editors grade the works into coarse, medium and fine gravel, and e-publish five or so each week, then the authors get to see their work ‘in print’ and compare their own skill level with those who surpass them. Learning by example as in the one-room schoolroom.

learning to write, cont.

[(Anonymous)]

I hit publish too soon.

I did belong for a while to a writing group once that has produced two published writers. One is James Rollins--who has achieved the "quit your day job" goal with his techno thrillers. M. Todd Gallowglas hasn't been as successful yet, but one of his self-published series of dark fantasy has been picked up and reissued by an actual publisher. So it can happen. I didn't get much out of the group--my work didn't fit the sci-fi or fantasy mold very well. Didn't do my ambitions any harm, but then anyone who has survived a dissertation defense is probably on the way to bulletproof.

It has been my experience that groups of already successful writers are less brutal. I belong to Sisters in Crime. The members seem genuinely happy for one another's successes and the meetings are full of helpful information. I think there are similar groups for non-mystery writers.

Rita

[(Anonymous)]

I generally found the writing workshops in college quite helpful, but I think I got lucky in that my classmates were all quite gentle with one another. I suppose a workshop formula could work if there was a set of ground rules--no critiques until the first draft was completed, don't bring your beloved novel baby to workshop, that sort of thing--but it would take some trial and error to figure it out.

Maybe the best approach would be to critique the work of authors outside the group. Something more like a book club, but with a focus on the writing. There's plenty of amature writing available online, so participants could learn to recognize common mistakes and cliches without getting their own work shredded. It would probably be good to examine the work of successful authors as well, just to get a feel for good writing. I think most of the nastiness that comes up in writing workshop happens because people feel threatened and lash out. If nobody's project is on the chopping block, then nobody much reason or opportunity to put other members down.

Could work. I wonder if anyone's already tried it?

[(Anonymous)]

Oh yes, coaching writing is an incredibly tricky and time-consuming job. Many teachers are driven to despair by the task of responding to a pile of student writing in a substantive way! Teachers at all levels sometimes use workshop structures to both enable students to receive feedback on their work and learn to read others' work closely and respond constructively. These are skills that need to be taught and practiced, though- why would we assume that just because someone is trying to write, they would know how to respond sensitively and perceptively to their peers' writing? After all, a group of writers in a room is just a microcosm of society, though perhaps one self-selected to enjoy hearing their own thoughts discussed a bit more than the norm.

In my experience, the workshop structure works best in a group that has already developed strong norms of trust and civility (much like the sense of community that develops among many commenters on JMG's well-moderated blogs). Further, when you perceive a lot of room for improvement in someone's writing, it can be difficult to know where to begin and end your (hopefully) constructive criticism. Chances for a successful exchange are improved when there is either a focus supplied by the instructor or facilitator (for younger or less experienced writers- e.g. Dialog day, or opening scenes), or when the presenter is expected to be specific about what aspect(s) of the work s/he is seeking feedback on at the time (for writers who are experienced enough to know where they need help).

In my own writing work, I've had the best experiences with small groups- no more than four- and when there was a built-in mechanism for review of the process (How did we do as a group today? What's our next goal?). These features promote accountability in the members. Otherwise, people who show up unprepared or who are unfocused or unengaged during the meeting can really sap the energy of the group, scuttling the whole process.

As for writers on writing, my favorite is Anne Lamott's "Bird By Bird". The concept of giving yourself permission, nay expectation, to write a sh*tty first draft, alone was worth the purchase price for me. Obviously since this was a revelation for me, I didn't have much good writing instruction myself prior to being thrown in the deep end in grad school. Not surprising, given how hard it is to deliver!

One experienced responder can make a world of difference to a developing writer, but I agree with the commenter above that this work needs to be compensated somehow- it's intense. If you really want to respond to a huge pile of manuscripts without dedicating your entire life to the task, a standard rubric of common, important features, with ample room for comments, can reduce the complexity of the task for the reviewer- subject, of course, to all the inherent dangers of simplification.

Hope this is helpful.

--Heather in CA

--Heather in CA

One more thought...

[(Anonymous)]

JMG, in your vast free time, I'm sure you could add to your income stream by moderating a subscription-based forum for aspiring writers. You could develop some workshop-like exercises à la Mystery Teachings, and enforce your particular brand of commenter discipline. It might work best and be most manageable with a tight focus- e.g. writers who want to sell SF short stories.

I loved Fires of Shalsha, by the way- probably my favorite of all your fiction. I wanted to read a whole series set in that world. I was surprised to hear that it only sold modestly. I think I'll go buy a copy to donate to my local library right now. :)

--Heather in CA

[(Anonymous)]

Hi JMG,

What would work? That's a great question, and if you come up with something I'd love to hear about it...

Maybe I should bring this up on the Open Thread instead, but it's relevant to what you're talking about here.

I recently had an experience sharing my work with several friends and I have no idea what to do with it. About a year ago I wrote a sword and sorcery novella in the vein of Robert E. Howard. I wrote the thing in a weekend in a fit of inspiration, and then set it aside. About a month ago I came back to it, reworked it a bit, and decided it was my best work to date. I asked several friends for their opinions.

Friend 1 works in TV production. He's trained as a filmmaker and writes screenplays. Friend 1 loved the story, pronouncing it "very professional, very publishable." Friend 1 is my age (30s) and I've known him since childhood. He doesn't read much fantasy in general but is the type of Tolkien fan that has reread the Silmarillion multiple times; that seems relevant to his ability to judge work in the genre.

Friend 2 is a published writer. He had some success with a YA novel some years ago. More recently he had a novel in manuscript optioned for a lot of money by people in Hollywood. However the manuscript remains unpublished-- he tells me that the various publishing houses passed it around, saying they wanted a bestseller and weren't sure if it would be a hit or not. Friend 2 is in his 70s.

Given Friend 1's reaction, I was prepared for Friend 2, who is someone I admire, to react similarly, and to acknowledge me as Also A Writer. Instead Friend 2 tore the thing to pieces, telling me that the first half was a complete bore, he could tell it was written quickly, and he couldn't bring himself to finish it. Now, being mindful of the tendency you described above of aspiring writers to react badly to this sort of thing, I did the opposite, and assumed that Mr. 2 was absolutely right in his assessment. Friend 2 does not read fantasy or science fiction, only literary fiction, and is the type of person who says things like "That's why most great writers are atheists." Nevertheless, as I said, I deferred to his opinions, given his experience. He had said at one point "You absolutely cannot send this out," and I decided not to tell him I had already done so.

At this point I was dreading hearing back from Friend 3, who may be reading this. Friend 3 enjoyed it a great deal, calling it "excellent." Friend 3 is a writer of somewhat more advanced skills and publication credit than myself, and both reads and writes in the genre; Friend 3 is a bit younger than me. At this point, though, I'd completely lost confidence in the thing. I restrained myself from writing back and saying "You are wrong, Friend 3, it is terrible." And then I further restrained myself from writing back and saying, "Don't humor me, Friend 3, this is awful work and we both know it." Actually I haven't written Friend 3 back at all, and it's been a month, and if you're reading this, Violet, well, now you know why you haven't heard from me...

Friend 2 wasn't being deliberately cruel as far as I can tell, and didn't act like a competitor at a writing workshop. Instead, he said, "If I didn't think you had talent I would just tell you 'It's good work, best of luck to you.' But I know you're going to make it as a writer so I'm going to tell you what's wrong with it.'"

The last thing that happened is I heard back from the magazine I'd sent it off to, a big name in the genre. A form rejection, which didn't surprise or bother me. Upon doing a bit of research, though, it turns out the editor uses a couple of different templates for his form rejections, depending on why he rejected the story. And it turns out that this was actually a high-level rejection, indicating that the editor read the thing to the end, but that something about that ending didn't work for him. Which still leaves an unpublished story, but it's a different reaction from "completely boring until page 25."

So... Where does this leave me? At this point I have basically no idea what I've written. I've been afraid to go back and touch the thing, because I don't know if it's good, or if it's terrible, or what would make it better. Given a situation like that, what would you do?

-Steve T

[(Anonymous)]

Couldn't agree more. I earn most of my money writing today, but early on I had a choice: take a very junior position at a well respected magazine, or subject myself to the sort of workshopping horror that is graduate school. The latter was the supposed path to success, but lucky for me I didn't end up getting into graduate school and took the low position and learned on the job.

Along with Strunk and White, I'd highly recommend Garners Modern American usage: http://www.lawprose.org/bryan-garner/books-by-bryan-garner/garners-modern-english-usage-4th-edition-2016/

Law of Limits

[(Anonymous)]

So in other words, JMG, we see here the Law of Limits from Mystery Teachings, applied to the domain of writing and publishing. At the more local level, we have the limits of grammar and basic English prose style, while at the more global level, the limits of genre expectations and/or the expectations of particular publishers and editors. By working within these constraints (and occasionally, having first mastered them, violating them in a conscious and deliberate way), we are able to go on to a successful creative endeavour.

Relatedly, on your critique of writing workshops, it's been interesting to note how all of the "writing experts" I've known (people who make their living as writing professors at universities, and the like) have reacted to the suggestion that we might expect writers to learn and follow the basic rules of English grammar. They range from anger and indignation, to a condescending "you really don't get it." According to them, such rules will "get in the way of their creativity" and keep students from writing anything at all! Of course, the idea that grammar and style could actually facilitate creative expression (and for, that matter, effective communication) is intolerable and oppressive...

--barefootwisdom

Too late?

[(Anonymous)]

Hi John Michael and everyone else,

I hope I'm not too late to slip a comment and question in here. If I am there's always the next ask-me-anything.

I also did a creative writing post-grad, about 10 years ago, and it pretty much did nothing for me (except that I happened to meet my long term partner that way, with whom I have two kids, but that's a separate issue!). However I don't think I can blame my confidence lack just on the course.

I think my mother subtly pressured me into the idea of being a writer (I have a theory that she wanted to herself but never tried due to her own chronic confidence issues, but I don't know for sure). She also not so subtly poured scorn on some of my genre reading choices as a young teenager such as Philip K Dick and some fantasy interests. She only wanted me reading classic and literary fiction. I also think there are other general life confidence issues there in the background.

The result is that I haven't really produced anything and I am in my mid thirties, but the desire to really clear the decks and make a proper try never quite leaves me. I have recently been pushing myself to write again, sometimes getting up at 5.30 to do so as there does not seem to be time otherwise. It is exciting when I manage, but also hard on my psyche, like a steel tight rope walk.

My question is...I seem to have always been capable of flashes of inspiration that take the form of phrases, single scenes, glowing glimmers of ideas and echoes of ideas, rather than concrete plots and characters. What comes to me is more akin to poetry or the makings of poetry perhaps, except I don't really read or want to write poetry. It is often very abstract and disparate, yet I feel there is meaning packed into it, but I don't know how to turn that into enough narrative for a story. I read conversations like this and I just envy you all that seem to be so full of actual STORIES, lots and lots of them, genre or literary or otherwise. Do you think this signifies that I'm just not cut out, or is it possible to learn to generate stories, characters and driving narrative which would give flesh to the sort of inspiration that naturally come to me? I could use some elements of style type-advice as I have writing flaws for sure, but what about elements of story and story-ideas advice?

Thank you so much for touching on yet another subject of great import to me!

feedback

[druidtides]

Hi John, I admit to being one of the rejected authors looking for feedback. I sympathise with your dilemma and as I am a new fiction writer, I am scouring all the the sites with advice for better writing. Back to our one drop fallacy and the CGD path of finding a middle ground between providing (a) detailed feedback (and the angst it can generate) and (b) no feedback, perhaps a middle path would be workable for all. I was thinking of very simple feedback options, (a) storyline is interesting but quality is not there (b) storyline isn't interesting and quality is not there (c) storyline isn't interesting but quality is reasonable and (d) storyline is interesting but not appropriate for volume.

This could be a simple form filled out when reading a submission, and making it very clear that its not up for discussion. As second thought is for people who would like more detailed feedback, charge a editorial consulting fee for your time($50-$60). There are a lot of people who would pay for an hour of your time.

In the end, you and the editorial team are the publishers and get to make the call on what you like and what you choose and that's fair. What disturbed me the most was the lack of ANY feedback, even a automated "thank you for your submission". It doesn't encourage you to go back and work on your writing and stories when they go into a black hole. You got some of us excited to write and it may take us a few rounds to get something to the level needed.. The simple form feedback is enough for most of us to see where to focus and detailed feedback option becomes an extra source of income. Anyway, just my two centimes ;-)