Magic Monday

[ecosophia]

It's getting on for midnight, so we can proceed with a new Magic Monday. Ask me anything about occultism and I'll do my best to answer it. Any question received by midnight Monday Eastern time will get an answer. (Any question received after then will not get an answer, and will likely just be deleted.) If you're in a hurry, or suspect you may be the 143,916th person to ask a question, please check out the very rough version 1.0 of The Magic Monday FAQ here

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And don't forget to look up your Pangalactic New Age Soul Signature at CosmicOom.com.

With that said, have at it!

***This Magic Monday is now closed. See you next week!***

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

1) Are there anything that makes bad fodder for discursive meditation? For instance, would it be unwise to meditate on evil exclusively? Is there any harm that comes from meditating unsystematically on themes that are incoherent? Is there anyway that someone could really badly mess up with discursive meditation and how can one avoid doing that?

2) Is there an occult reason why people in the United States of every class and cultural niche seem so brittle? I've noticed that it is nearly impossible to have a reasoned disagreement with nearly everyone I know, and that this cuts across every imaginable divide. It also seems very creepy to me: if we can't have reasoned disagreements how can we have peace and liberty? Is there some sort of magical explanation for why people seemingly cannot countenance disagreement, even polite disagreement?

[ecosophia]

1) Not that I know of. I'm sure it must be possible to misuse discursive meditation and end up in trouble, but I've never seen anyone actually manage that.

2) That's a good question that has no simple answer. I think that a world-class case of cognitive dissonance plays a large role in it. Most people are aware that their lives suck, but they've been told over and over again in ten thousand different ways by advertising that their lives are wonderful, or will be just as soon as they buy the latest corporate crap, and the conflict between their wordless sense of how awful their lives are and the babble of endlessly replaying ads in their conscious minds has them ready to snap.

[(Anonymous)]

You might recall that I asked you about the possibility knowingly taking a hard landing into this life as a pathfinder for a project.
When I asked my Ogham staves where I can find the notes I left myself about what I’m supposed to be doing in this life, they said: (1-3-2 layout) Mor reversed, Ruis reversed, Straif.
If you have a moment, may I have your interpretation of that draw in order to check my work?
Many thanks.
Rhydlyd

[ecosophia]

"You left them behind when you entered this life. Deal."

[(Anonymous)]

Could we pretty please have a nickel tour of the Fludd illustration?
R

[ecosophia]

It maps last week's diagram onto the human body. The genitals are the center of the material current, the crown of the head is the center of the spiritual current, and the heart mediates between them.

[(Anonymous)]

Could I make a prayer request?

The person who owns my apartment scheduled the boiler to be replaced today and tomorrow. I was not consulted on the timing. I feel like a Monday when the moon is in Scorpio and waxing its way to an eclipse is probably not ideal for installing a new boiler. Wouldn’t be my first choice, anyway!

I’ve been sick all weekend and am not up to doing any magical work today - ideally I’d prefer to do a targeted SOP at the very least, but even just doing it mentally in a general sense earlier today tired me out.

If anyone is open to praying that the boiler is installed safely, without fault to the unit, efficiently, and causes me no trouble, I’d appreciate it.

My question: am I right in my judgment this is a poor election for installing a device that uses water?

[ecosophia]

That isn't necessarily a bad time for a boiler installation -- the eclipse doesn't have any influence until it actually starts. That said, positive energy en route.

[causticus]

Good evening Archdruid,

1. Several questions concerning Ogham divination:
(a) Do you know of any adaptation of the Ogham to the native flora of the Northeast or Great Lakes regions? Something similar to what you did in adapting it to the Pacific Northwest flora.
(b) I'm having a lot of trouble coming up with divination questions for Ogham, as opposed to Geomancy which is so cut and dry with those yes/no questions. Do you know of good question themes that would be appropriate for an Ogham beginner?

2. Not a question per-se, but I just want to say I'm so stoked for the upcoming book club posts! I just got my copy (your translation), and after reading the intro section I have to say I immediately took to E. Levi's writing style! Even though I can't read it in its original French, I adore his style of prose. He seemed to have a real gift for convey dense imagery using very clever, run-on sentence prose. This is going to be a wild ride indeed!

-Turquoise Greasy Pangolin

[ecosophia]

1a) Not that I know of; I was hoping to inspire more such projects.

1b) I have good results with questions like "what do I need to understand about X?" and "what is really going on with Y?"

2) Glad to hear it. Lévi has a lot to say, and he's very good at saying it.

Magic places

[(Anonymous)]

Dear Archdruid,
I read there are places, like Lyon, France, where energies are more intense and tend to atract occultists. Are there cities like them in our continent? Some people would say Machu Picchu, but I was there and it's more like a honeypot for tourists, just like Disneyland or Checkpoint Charlie.
-Edu

Re: Magic places

[ecosophia]

There will certainly be, but you'll have to talk to the native peoples to find out where they are, and they may not want to tell you.

Cocoa Magic

[(Anonymous)]

Dear JMG,
I made an offering of chocolate to my statuette of Venus after a successful sexual interlude, under Her guidance. The chocolate sat on the plinth of her statue for two days and I asked if I might eat it. I got a good feeling and ate the chocolate. It now tasted of rose.

I wondered if it had picked up the taste of rose incense from the plinth. I had not burned any incense to Venus while the chocolate was an offering. I tasted the plinth which is made of some horrible, polymer clay and it tasted terrible and my tongue went numb. The rose flavour did not come from it but from my Gracious Lady. I see this as a very nice gift from Venus. I have never had a flavour before although I have sometimes smelled frankincense when none was burning.

I am soldiering on through the scrying of the Ogham fews in the DMH. I must be in physically better shape because it is getting much easier. I find I am getting most of my insights into the fews from understanding the natural history of the plants. Whoever put the Ogham fews together knew a lot about botany.
Maxine

Re: Cocoa Magic

[ecosophia]

That's very traditional! Glad to hear you had good results.

Astrological Hindsight

[(Anonymous)]

Dear JMG,

I understand that interpreting astrology can be quite difficult to get spot-on. I was wondering if the election of Biden, for example, which was not predicted astrologically as a sure thing, appears more clearly in astrological hindsight? Does viewing what happened and comparing it to the charts help in honing the astrologer's interpretive skill for future predictions? I'm curious if there is anything that stands out that one can say, ah, that's what we missed which points to a Biden win or a Trump loss.

Re: Astrological Hindsight

[ecosophia]

I don't think it was a sure thing. I noticed, and commented, as we got closer to the election that it wasn't at all sure how things were going to turn out. Yes, going back over the charts is a good idea, but it doesn't always result in perfect clarity.

[(Anonymous)]

Hey JMG,

yesterday I had the chance to listen to your interview on the higherside chats. Your description of magic as a way to improve yourself and your situation in life really caught my attention.
Would you say that Gareth Knight's experience of the inner worlds gives one the tools to improve oneself and reach one's goals, or is it too bunny slopey?

[ecosophia]

If you're just beginning with magic, the bunny slope is what you need! Knight's book starts with the basics and builds from there -- it's a good solid introduction and will get you started fixing your life. The one thing it lacks is a stronger protective ritual -- I recommend the Sphere of Protection, which can be done quite effectively with the Christian names and symbols Knight uses and is compatible with his methods. Once you finish with that book, you can go on to other things, including several of Knight's other books.

Texts of Classical religion

[(Anonymous)]

Other than Homer and Hesiod, which are the most important texts of Greek, and also Roman, paganism / polytheism? Which Classical philosophers and other writers had much to say about the gods?

Re: Texts of Classical religion

[ecosophia]

You'll want to talk to a Classical Pagan about that. I have a good general knowledge of the Neoplatonists and Stoics but I'm not a Classics scholar in any broader sense.

[booklover1973]

A while ago someone asked you about using the Grove Ritual for the Druid Magic Handbook as an invisibilty ritual; you wrote that the telluric current would need to be invoked. Am I correct in the assumption that for ending the invisibilty spell the solar current would be used?

Secondly, you wrote a while ago how thr current systems of Western magic are fragments of what more complete esoteric systems would be like. In that context, it occurred to me that the Dolmen Arch course is, among other things, a way to make thr Druid Magic Handbook system more complete.

Thirdly, the Chinese characters under your posts on Dreamwidth are real Chinese characters and have the same or a similar meaning as the English mood words before them.

[ecosophia]

1) Yes. You balance out the telluric current with the solar current, so if you invoke the telluric current to achieve a state, you invoke the solar current to leave that state.

2) Good. That was quite deliberate, of course.

3) Thanks for this.

[(Anonymous)]

Does learning to play a musical instrument have an effect on the subtle bodies?

[mollari]

Not JMG, but I'd say yes! It depends on the instrument just how much of an effect it has, as well as on what plane(s): In my experience, percussion instruments don't have a whole lot happening on the subtle planes aside from the astral energies inherent in music; while woodwinds have an awful lot happening in the etheric plane as well. (It's enough that when I speak to friends who also play woodwinds, they almost always grasp details of the etheric plane other people miss)

Will power

[(Anonymous)]

Morning John
I’m working my way through your will training posts and have now reached part 4, yeah I know, I’m a little late to the party! I realised recently that the solution to my anxiety issues was lack of will power to choose my own perceptions/ mental constructs rather than have negative ones thrust upon me. So I’ve got stuck in. The results are starting to take effect but I know it will take sometime to undo the habits of will. But something else has occurred to me, that I thought I’d run past you. You gave an example of a goal, ie to become a millionaire and by using your will power appropriately there is no reason why a person wouldn’t succeed. Would the goal of using your will power to seek to achieve “the luminous life” be a sensible choice for a Druid on the OBOD course? This would seem to fit in with the cosmic doctrine and the importance of developing restraint/will.
Regards
Averagejoe

Re: Will power

[ecosophia]

1) Better late than never.

2) It would indeed.

[(Anonymous)]

(Internet hiccup, apologies if this is a duplicate post.). I purchased a vintage suitcase at an antique mall, hoping to use it as storage under my bed. When I got it home, I discovered that it had a tone-on-tone swastika pattern lining. While I understand that the swastika is a very old symbol with lots of history before the Nazis got ahold of it, and that it’s possible my suitcase predates the 1930’s, I’m not happy having this symbol in my home. So I’m wondering what my options are, magically speaking. I could just throw it out of course, but I couldn’t be sure it wouldn’t reappear for me or someone else. I could tear out the lining, and burn it, but would the smoke be an offering to a malign entity I wouldn’t want to hear from? Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks.

[ecosophia]

By being terrified of that symbol you're giving Nazis and neo-Nazis power over it, and over your imagination. It didn't stop being a positive symbol just because some German occultists hijacked it; in Hinduism and Buddhism it remains a powerful symbol of blessing...



Make a deliberate choice to see the symbol as a positive thing, and do some research into its meanings in Hindu and Buddhist tradition, and you'll help strip away energy from neo-Nazism. Isn't that more useful than wrecking a perfectly good suitcase?

By the way, no, burning the lining wouldn't be an offering to anything, except possibly your own fears.

[(Anonymous)]

Hello JMG,
Some of your wisdom about Egypt, if you’d be so kind.
I’m interested in doing pathworking (or equivalent if that's not possible) with the Egyptian gods (I do an Egyptian LBRP), and have been trying to find a reliable book. Llewellyn publish one of that title by Judith Page, about which opinion seems to be very divided, and I’ve also seen recommendations for books by Nicki Scully, Stephen Skinner and for translations of the Book of Gates. Do you know of anything that’s accurate and reliable? There seems to be so much garbage published abut Egypt ....
Many thanks.

[ecosophia]

There is indeed a fantastic amount of garbage published about Egypt. My advice would be to ignore what's published in modern times and do things the old-fashioned way. In many books of magic -- including most of mine! -- there are detailed descriptions of how to do scrying, which is the usual introduction to pathworking. Learn the hieroglyphs for basic concepts in Egyptian religion, and for the names of the gods you want to work with; use each of them as a symbol for scrying, and meditate at length on everything you experience in your scryings. That will do you much more good than following anyone else's canned pathworkings.

CosDoc second readings / meanings

[abrahamjpalma]

Hello, Mr. Greer.

There is something that is bugging me for a while. Take, for example, this CosDoc paragraph:

--
As we have already seen, a Great Entity projects its concept
of itself. This, however, is not the beginning of objectivisation in
a universe, though dealt with first in the order of instruction in
order to make that which follows more comprehensible; for the
Great Entity, when it projected the image of itself, gained substance
of the same nature as the projection, awaiting the organisation
which that projection should bring about.
--

A first read, within context, is talking about a Great Entity which makes a copy of itself out of cosmic matter, it projects the thought and the matter will come. It creates an objective image which is what other consciences around will interact with. In practical terms directly deduced from the metaphore, if I wanted other people to interact differently with me, then I have to change the image I am projecting to the world, so people see a different me. Powerful psychological stuff.

Then you can make a second read, out of context. It tells how a Great Entity can build something great (it's a great entity, so whatever it creates should be great, isn't it?). First it must make plans (projections), only after the design is made, it should go on with gathering materials for the work as instructed in the plans (of the same kind of the work you want to make), and finally organise the materials to complete the plans. They look like very rough instructions for a successful great work.

It's hard to get to the second meaning, since the meaning that comes from context obscure our thinking. I think this is what we usually call 'second readings'. In common talking, it's very easy to get misunderstandings when the same set of words can be understood in two or three different ways. Very often, what a person says can mean different things, and we usually pick the right meaning from context, but sometimes it doesn't work. Sometimes we are not even aware that there are second meanings.
So, studying this book is, in a way, developing the ability to see second meanings, since I am becoming more aware of them (and I am terrible at doing second readings, mind you).

So far, so good.

What is bugging me, it's that now, the very first thing that I attempt when I study a paragraph is to find second meanings. You instructed to study the text with the images it suggested in mind, but I have failed to do so for several chapters. What I've been doing instead was to take a broad look over a set of keywords, and trying to make another sense of them, if put in a different context, with different degrees of success. In some places I think Fortune was talking about movie films, the chemical reactions that produce images in the film, where rays can pass through the parts of the film that have reacted, the frecuency you have to move the rings in order to see the movie correctly, and how the film is stored in a disc and can be carried away. In other places it looks as if she's talking about gestating babies. In other sections, I'd swear she's talking about how the parliament dictates civil laws.

I was so absorbed with this game, that I got lost of how Fortune moved from 'Great Organisms' to 'Great Entities'. It appears that she is talking about the same thing: traveling atoms that have settled in their right orbits. I can't tell the difference. In Spanish, an organism is an alive thing that has 'organs', parts that perform different tasks, while an entity is an association of people, or just a being, not necessarily alive. If I were using these different words for the same concept, I guess Organism is to be applied to the Administration, while Entities is the same thing but in the Corporate/Private sector. But other than this, I can't find nice second meanings in these chapters.

I guess I should go back and repeat the study process, this time holding onto the images.


On a second but related issue, I'm slowly reading 'Dogme et rituel de la haute magie', and although I have not done yet a serious study, I can't really find second meanings in this text. There are some hints at practical magic here and there, without really saying, but nothing like the multiple layer of meanings that is CosDoc. Is 'Dogme et Rituel' really easier, or is it just even more occult?

Re: CosDoc second readings / meanings

[ecosophia]

Okay, good. You've caught onto one of the traps hardwired into occult literature. Since the Cos.Doc. requires many readings, you have time to explore it in many different ways. As for Dogme et Rituel, it's a much simpler book -- it doesn't have the nested meanings, though it's full of hints that take meditation to unfold. Lévi was writing for a general audience, not for a circle of senior initiates, as Fortune was.

DMH and a lunar eclipse

[(Anonymous)]

Hi JMG

I am working through the DMH and plan on doing a scrying this Friday.

I have noted in your answers to other questions to be wary (or is it avoid?) workings during, and near to, lunar eclipses. But I never absorbed the message.

With a lunar eclipse this Wednesday, is there anything I should be conscious of in relation to magic?

Re: DMH and a lunar eclipse

[ecosophia]

It's best to avoid workings during the actual time of eclipses. Before and after? Not a problem. Friday will be perfectly safe.

[(Anonymous)]

1. If you find that you have an inner Harry Haller (from Steppenwolf - a snob with 'better taste' than the masses) how do you integrate it? I may need to re-read Steppenwolf again...

2. About divination in general: even after recording my daily Ogham divinations and comparing what I predicted the next day afterwards, I find they are often so general that I can find 'something' that makes my predictions seem true. I don't know if this is an issue or not, and it makes me wonder if I am not learning something important with how I interpret my predictions. I use the same question every day: "What do I most need to know about the coming day". Do you have any advice about this?

Thank you!

[ecosophia]

1) If you find you have an inner Harry Haller, why, what you need is to get in touch with your inner Hermine -- because you also have one of those, of course.

2) That's a common stage. Keep at it, and pay closer attention to the distinctive qualities of the fews.

[(Anonymous)]

When I started having hoodoo baths the first time was the strongest. Within several weeks I felt I'd cleared the backlog of a lifetime of crud and was down to maintainence level. How long does it take the banishing portion of the SoP to reach that point (assuming the invokings keep building power indefinitely)? I'm not sure how much backlog I've cleared as the effects of the SoP are more subtle and don't have feedback like the reactions of a tree jonesin' for its fix. :)

[ecosophia]

It depends on how much astral crud you've accumulated and how much there is in your environment. What I've noticed with the SoP is that it started off subtle, picked up power, plateaued for a while, went subtle again, picked up sharply -- rinse and repeat. Just now I'm going through a very strong phase, in which it's more obviously robust than a pentagram ritual; that may be a function of other workings I'm doing, but there it is. Doubtless it'll cycle back down to subtlety in a while.

Cosmic Doctrine

[randomactsofkarmasc]

These questions are in reference to the Cosmic Doctrine. Thank you!

1. My understanding is that each swarm develops a Group Spirit/Oversoul. When each of the first three swarms has finished its evolution through the seven sub-planes, the swarm’s Group Spirit/Oversoul is assimilated into the Logoidal consciousness. After the first three swarms, the Group Spirit/Oversoul of the swarm becomes the Star Logoi/Ray Exemplar of the Ray that the swarm was assigned to. But in Part 2, Fortune refers to the Lord of the Purple Ray as the Oversoul of the Lords of Mind. But the Oversoul of the Lords of Mind was assimilated into the Logos and is no longer a separate entity. So how can it be assimilated and also be separate? (Or is this one of those things meant to train my mind and not inform it?)
2. Part 2 also mentions that a Ray contains a whole spectrum of colors and some Lords of Mind are associated with different colors. If the ROY G BIV version of the spectrum is used, that is 7 colors. Is each color associated with a different planet?
3. Why are the Lords of Mind on the same Ray as our swarm? Is it because the #16 swarm is the first swarm to have to double-up on a Ray? (Swarms 1, 2, and 3 weren’t assigned a Ray, swarms 4 through 15 would be assigned to Rays 1 to 12, so our swarm is back to Ray 1?)
4. Fortune says the second plane has Nature Forces, the third plane has Saints, all the way up to the seventh plane, which has the Christs. Not the Christ, but the Christs (plural). She also says “The ‘Ray’ of the Cosmic Christ is that of the Oversoul of the Lords of Mind.” Who are the other Christs on the seventh plane? Are these the Divine Sparks who were initiated by the Cosmic Christ? (So after they die on our plane, they get a FastPass to the seventh plane?)

Monochrome Nocturnal Neanderthal

Re: Cosmic Doctrine

[ecosophia]

These are all excellent themes for meditation -- and they're all intended to train your mind rather than to inform it. It's good that you're paying close attention to the details, but remember that in the Cos.Doc., the details don't always fit precisely. I'm pretty sure she did this deliberately to mess with potential fundamentalists.

A few comments I 'll make: 1) Yes, each planet has its own color, and you should be able to work them out. 2) The Christs, in Fortune's view, are those Lords of Mind who have attuned themselves so perfectly to the Solar Logos that they can say, with perfect truth, "I and my Father are one." The Cosmic Christ is the oversoul of the Lords of Mind. (3) "Lord of the Purple Ray" is a Theosophical title; these aren't the twelve rays Fortune is talking about, but a set of seven rays used in Theosophical teaching.

[(Anonymous)]

While waiting in the ED, I did an imaginal LBRP. I found it very difficult and slow, like the imagined movements were through treacle. Is this because the conditions were just that bad? Worth it?

[ecosophia]

Yes and yes.

Medieval Era

[(Anonymous)]

Lead roofs on cathedrals: magically speaking, a good thing or a bad thing? Or both, depending...?

(Celadon/Arkansas)

Re: Medieval Era

[ecosophia]

A good thing. Clearly they were shielding something.

[(Anonymous)]

For the purposes of planetary charity, what astrological power rules Christian missionaries?

[ecosophia]

They don't count as charity. Since their purpose is to increase church membership and revenues, they fall into the same category as any other advertising agency.

[avalterra]

JMG,

I assume you have been made aware that there has been a very obvious and very public push by our government and military to get the whole UFO phenomena going again. The obvious reason would be that they have new aircraft/rockets/space vehicle they are wanting to test. I guess the other reason is as some sort of distraction.

Might there be other more esoteric reasons?


AV

[ecosophia]

Not that I know of. On the one hand, it's clear that the US Navy is testing something secret -- presumably they've finally noticed that their carrier fleet is a collection of sitting ducks in an age of hypersonic missiles, and they seem to be working on something that's launched from an underwater platform. On the other hand, it's a heck of a distraction, at a time when the establishment in this country desperately wants to divert attention from its own missteps. As far as I can tell, those explain it just fine.

Cult of Bitcoin

[(Anonymous)]

Almost two weeks ago I was listening to a podcast featuring a true-believing Bitcoin maxi who brought up a bunch of points about how decentralized crypto can defund forever wars, tame predatory bankers, and most importantly stop a bunch of bureaucrats from stealing money from my savings account with inflation. The next day Elon started shooting his mouth off and the price began to slide, so I decided to learn more and see if this is a worthy investment at a discount or just a collapsing bubble.

I do not understand the nuances of the code, but the following 10 days of nonstop attacks from legacy media, China, and even the Pope convinced me that this must be a dangerous revolutionary technology worth a second look. The natal chart appears to have been elected with that exact purpose in mind, leading some to speculate that the mysterious founder had some astrological chops.

https://astroinsightsblog.wordpress.com/2021/01/25/bitcoin-comes-of-age/

Finding out about the upcoming eclipse square with Saturn and Uranus made me feel queazy about the money I put down, but by the time I learned about that it was already too late and the fever had swept me down river. Has there ever been a speculative asset before where the investors would rather lose all their money than surrender and capitulate? It occurred to me that as someone brought up in Christianity this made me feel like I was living in the book of Exodus, where Satoshi is Moses leading us out of debt slavery, delivering the blockchain tablets to follow, and mysteriously disappearing along the way after infighting broke out.

Twitter is where we gather for inspiration, and oddly enough the hashtag is full of religious iconography with even Kek making multiple appearances (my favorite is the haloed version with a deeply sympathetic face supporting a struggling Hodler). Faith is rewarded, weakness is despised, and "to the moon" sounds a whole lot like the promised land. Alt coins are the Levantine false gods trying to lead the chosen people astray, and Pharaoh FUD's army is still hot on our heels.

Now when facing establishment pundit's accusations of being a cult some of the more prominent maxis have actually started deliberately embracing it, as if to say "Hell yeah, if being in a cult means believing in something bigger than the next quarter in a dying financial system then we are a cult!"

The effect on me was profound as I have never invested in anything in my life that I cannot hold in my own hands. It was the promise of financial gain mixed with a sense of purpose that kept me up at night obsessively researching. I realized that I was in an altered state and asked my wife to remind me to not put more down than we are prepared to lose. It would suck if it went to zero (or the grid failures win out sooner than expected) but at least it meant I resisted slavery and did more than just go along to get along. In that respect I am far less fearful than normal.

After a modest amount of occult training it is clear than something more is at work here and I wish to understand it better. Even if turns out to be a good call it still bothers me that I did not recognize what was going on it at first and found myself under the influence.

Re: Cult of Bitcoin

[ecosophia]

Many thanks for a glimpse inside the Bitcoin world. I'm pretty sure that cryptocurrencies are vastly overinflated in price, and that the heavy pressure against them in recent weeks has been part of a frantic attempt by the establishment to stave off a truly gargantuan speculative bubble that could do a 1929 on the world economy. I understand the desire to make something outside of the current travesty of a financial system, however! As for your question about true believers in speculative assets -- yes, it happens quite often. If you haven't read John Kenneth Galbraith's The Great Crash 1929, drop everything, get a copy, and read it three times before you invest another penny in anything at all.

It's quite possible that Bitcoin and other cryptos will turn out to be an important innovation. Keep in mind that many of the companies whose stocks went to the Moon in 1929 and then crashed disastrously, wrecking the global economy, were also selling important innovations. Just because the basics are sound doesn't mean that it can't be catastrophically overinflated in price...