Open (More Or Less) Post On Covid 16
Nov. 23rd, 2021 12:40 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
ecosophia
The semi-open posts I've hosted here on the Covid-19 narrative, the inadequately tested experimental drugs for it, and the whole cascading mess surrounding them have continued to field a very high number of comments, so I'm opening yet another space for discussion. The rules are the same as before: 1. If you plan on parroting the party line of the medical industry and its paid shills, please go away. This is a place for people to talk openly, honestly, and freely about their concerns that the party line in question is dangerously flawed and that actions being pushed by the medical industry et al. are causing injury and death. It is not a place for you to dismiss those concerns. Anyone who wants to hear the official story and the arguments in favor of it can find those on hundreds of thousands of websites.
2. If you plan on insisting that the current situation is the result of a deliberate plot by some villainous group of people or other, please go away. There are tens of thousands of websites currently rehashing various conspiracy theories about the Covid-19 outbreak and the vaccines. This is not one of them. What we're exploring is the likelihood that what's going on is the product of the same arrogance, incompetence, and corruption that the medical industry and its tame politicians have displayed so abundantly in recent decades. That possibility deserves a space of its own for discussion, and that's what we're doing here.
3. If you plan on using rent-a-troll derailing or disruption tactics, please go away. I'm quite familiar with the standard tactics used by troll farms to disrupt online forums, and am ready, willing, and able -- and in fact quite eager -- to ban people permanently for engaging in them here. Oh, and I also lurk on other Covid-19 vaccine skeptic blogs, so I'm likely to notice when the same posts are showing up on more than one venue.
4. If you don't believe in treating people with common courtesy, please go away. I have, and enforce, a strict courtesy policy on my blogs and online forums, and this is no exception. The sort of schoolyard bullying that takes place on so many other internet forums will get you deleted and banned here. No, I don't care if you disagree with that: my journal, my rules.
With that said, as the mass media insists that it's perfectly normal for pro athletes to drop dead of heart attacks at sixty times the usual rate, and search engines turn up a steadily increasing series of hits for the search string "died suddenly," the floor is open for discussion.
Red Death scenario
Date: 2021-11-29 01:12 am (UTC)I'm not going to speculate further on any social motives for a new variant, but I would like to put forth a theoretical situation. This may or may not apply to the new variant, but it *could* apply to any future variant. I put this forward so that others may discuss it - feel free to pick holes in it, I would like to know any reasons why it could not happen, as to me the mild symptoms are actually seeming like quite the warning flag, and may be hiding something potentially very serious.
The situation is as follows:
1. A new variant arrives, let's call it variant Omega. It causes extremely mild symptoms, and is only discovered in a triple foxed individual 3 days after they get off a plane and are PCR-ed. The patient recovers, but Omega is found to be heavily mutated from the original strain.
2. Borders are closed, lock downs ordered, vixen passes, mandates, masks on whilst sat alone in the airing cupboard - the full works. A month or so passes... and nothing. The usual trickle of deaths come in, but they appear to mostly be old variants, particularly Delta. A few cases of Omega are found here and there, usually in the vixenated, but they all recover with no real effects after a few days. Amidst furious calls from frustrated populations, particularly those vixenated, things slowly open up.
3. Still, nothing happens. People get back to (new) normal and life carries on. The odd person might have a bit of a cough, or feel a bit tired for a few days, but things seem fine.
4. Until it's not. People suddenly take a turn for the worse, and start gasping for breath with plunging oxygen levels, or go to bed feeling a bit dizzy and don't wake up, or start dropping dead from heart attacks whilst walking the dog or driving to work. They do not test positive beforehand (if they are even tested at all) and are all vixenated. A new variant is blamed, but cannot be identified. This keeps happening, seemingly at random. Lockdowns get re-imposed, everyone is confined to their homes, but these measures do nothing to stop it - people who have self-isolated in a remote Scottish cottage for 2 months still just drop dead one morning.
5. This chaos continues until a certain horse dewormer is quietly allowed to be re-prescribed off-label, or there is only a small proportion of the population remaining.
So what the hell happened? My theory goes that the Omega virus enters the body and goes effectively either unnoticed by the immune system (due to immune tolerance, trained in by the vixen) or the antibody defences used are utterly ineffective against a modified spike protein (due to original antigenic sin from the original-strain vixens). Both scenarios basically allow the virus to go about its business unhindered, and with minimal side effects, as the immune system is barely bothering with it, or has been overwhelmed, having put all its resources into a useless spike antibody. Let's say that Omega has also modified its spike protein so that it is now able to enter the immune cells through antibody-enhancement. It can then camp out there, safe and cozy, making billions of copies of itself completely unimpeded, which is ultimately all the virus 'wants'. The patient will show barely any symptoms, as the body no longer even knows that it is infected, particularly as the CD-8 T-cells, which are specifically intended to detect this kind of hostile takeover, are suppressed by the vixens. Meanwhile, our patient is spreading the virus far and wide, and, as only the unfoxed are tested, nobody is any the wiser. The virus has evolutionary shifted itself to immune evasion and high infectiousness, at the cost of virulence, as is the way with most respiratory viruses. That doesn't mean it's harmless though - in a normal situation, the immune system would be frantically fighting the virus that is taking over its body, causing symptoms, but in this scenario, the vixens essentially prevent any meaningful defensive response, only 'more of the same' out-of-date spike antibodies (if you've followed JMG for a while, you'll be seeing a parallel with a similar line of thinking in declining civilisations). As the virus moves from the lung cells, where it is most infectious and least likely to show symptoms, to the immune cells in the blood stream, it is essentially hidden from being found in nasal or throat swabs, so the virus seems to 'disappear' from the body and is presumed defeated. The spike protein, and by proxy the virus, are actually somewhat toxic even if inactive though, as they bind to human cells extremely well, particularly in the endothelium of blood vessels, where they cause widespread clotting. Therefore, at some critical point, which will be different in all individuals, a threshold is reached and the level of virus will be so great that the clots build up to such an extent they cause a heart attack, stroke, or haemorrhage, and people suddenly drop dead, weeks or months after initial infection with Omega. The only solution is to ensure that the patient can rid themselves of the virus, which is where the horse dewormer comes in.
I call this the Red Death scenario, alluding to the book The Masque of The Red Death - the castle doors are bolted shut, the great unwashed (unfoxed) locked safely outside, but somehow the guests are all still dying, and when the Red Death is eventually cornered - he has disappeared. I have also had a lot of Red Death synchronicities lately.
As I say, please feel free to dispute this, it's just a potential scenario, and would fit JMG's original hypothesis. As JMG has also said - this is a situation where I would like to be proved wrong.
I read and post here regularly, usually anonymously, but today I will sign off as WolfDog.
Re: Red Death scenario
Date: 2021-11-29 05:54 am (UTC)A non-self-limiting virus will simply be more deadly in the absence of an effective immune response. A self-limiting virus will either reach some sort of equilibrium or cycle between periods of dormancy and activation. Quite a few viruses work this way - survival over evolutionary time is a lot easier if you can hide out in hosts for years instead of needing to find a new susceptible host every seven days or so.
Your scenario is basically a spike protein biotoxicity disaster. The vaccines lead to medium-term spike exposure with serious, possibly cumulative, and potentially fatal effects, and if vaccine-induced immune tolerance and/or OAS leads to indefinite viral persistence then the spike exposure keeps adding up until it reaches some fatal threshold.
It is not in the virus' interest to be toxic to its host over the long term, but this is a novel virus in humans and the only way that evolution can select against toxicity of long-term persistence is through the death of the host.
I find your scenario unfortunately plausible...
Mark L
Re: Red Death scenario
Date: 2021-11-29 09:50 am (UTC)I'd not considered the self-limiting aspect, but that's actually even more concerning, as if the virus 'learns' to periodically go dormant whilst camouflaged in the immune cells, it could then have sudden, repeating waves of infectiousness, which only display as symptoms after the virus has already spread, and then the person is confined for their 10 days or however long, during which time the virus goes dormant again and the patient has 'recovered' and no longer shows up as a positive test.
In a way, that's even worse than the scenario above, as the dormancy would ensure that everyone didn't die within the same 6 months, but slowly over the course of years, as each activation cycle would release a new burst of spikes into the body (as would the 6 monthly boosters), causing micro-clots until one day,maybe years down the line, the body can no longer take it. Meanwhile, the MSM can continue to push the idea for maybe a decade that the vixens are working, as no one seems to be getting sick from the virus (whereas the unfoxed, ironically, probably would, as their body will mount a reasonable defence), and we get all of the boosters, mandates, vixen passports, etc as no one is able to connect the dots. At the end of a decade of this, there may not be many people left for the MSM to talk to, with the holdouts having had to retreat to the woods.
To differentiate that even more horrible scenario, if it's discussed in the future, I'll call it the Grey Death (if anyone else played Deus Ex back in the day, they will see the connection!).
WolfDog
Re: Red Death scenario
Date: 2021-11-29 07:10 pm (UTC)If I'm looking for issues, I would say that I don't find it very likely that SARS-CoV2 will learn to hide out in immune cells like HIV, but I don't think that really matters in terms of the overall hypothesis.
From an evolutionary perspective, if we think like a virus, we can observe that there are two viable strategies for survival. The first might be called "party and run" - infect as many cells as possible and make as many copies as possible in order to spread before the police (adaptive immune response) shows up and shuts the party down. This is actually a pretty risky strategy for the virus since failure to find new hosts can lead to extinction at any time. The second strategy might be called "hide and abide" - find ways to persist long-term in the body without causing acute illness. There are two substrategies to this - viruses that can spread from a low-level sub-symptomatic infection (like herpes or HPV) reach more or less an equilibrium level of persistence while viruses that need higher (symptomatic) viral loads in order to transmit might go dormant and then reactivate later.
The question is which of these two strategies SARS-CoV2 is more adapted for. We have assumed that it is a party-and-run virus, but then our tests have by and large only been tracking nasal infection, and we have pretty strong evidence of longer-term viral persistence in at least some people. The mere existence of asymptomatic infection should be taken as evidence that SARS-CoV2 is capable of adopting a hide-and-abide strategy, and increasing rates of asymptomatic infection can be seen as an evolutionary step in that direction.
Transition from party-and-run to hide-and-abide is a coevolutionary process that requires changes in both the host (to become more tolerant of viral persistence) and the virus (to become more self-limiting so as not to reach a threshold of tissue damage that overcomes tolerance/evasion and triggers an immune response).
From my perspective, it's worth noting that endogenous spike production following genetic vaccination should be expected to induce some degree of immune tolerance toward the spike protein (which will be partially offset in the near term by anti-spike antibody production), that OAS could have a tolerance-like effect (if antibodies fail to neutralize the virus), and that downregulation of killer CD8 cells also acts in favor of immune tolerance. So various aspects of genetic vaccination shift the immune system in favor of a viral hide-and-abide strategy, and it remains to be seen whether the virus will make the corresponding moves in a coevolutionary dance toward that strategy.
The question then becomes: what would be the consequences of SARS-CoV2 adopting a hide-and-abide strategy in humans? Viruses that follow this strategy have widely varying effects. Herpes Simplex 1 is simply ubiquitous and mostly harmless. HPV causes persistent low-level inflammation leading to increased cancer risk. HIV causes progressive immunodeficiency leading to death.
I think it is fair to assume, given what we know about spike biotoxicity, that a hide-and-abide strategy for SARS-CoV2 could well lead to a situation like your Red Death scenario. I would also expect that if the virus shifts in this direction evolutionarily, vaccinated people will be disproportionately affected but long-term viral persistence will probably become more common in unvaccinated people as well, particular those with weaker immune systems. I don't think that such an outcome would be permanent; in all likelihood we would discover "horse dewormer" or some better antiviral that would allow people to live indefinitely with virus such as is now true of HIV, or that would aid the immune system in clearing the virus completely. However, that would require a medical awakening of sorts, and in the meantime - especially given the rigid, dogmatic, and truth-resistant narrative currently in place - we could see a lot of illness and death.
Mark L
Re: Red Death scenario
Date: 2021-11-29 08:28 pm (UTC)My main concern is that Omicron may well turn out to be nothing special (and if it is, then people will just get even more complacent), but so long as it is able to persist in some way, it has now learned a neat little immune-evasion trick, which means it can either do it again (regardless of what new variant-specific boosters are rolled out - and on a side note, which do you target? Omicron, Delta, a new theoretical hybrid? It's just playing whack-a-mole forever otherwise) or by a series of clumsy actions such as only testing the unfoxed, we 'breed-in' viral traits for it getting better and better at immune evasion until it's basically undetectable and symptomless, leading to the situation above. It's been said before, but leaky, non-sterilising vaccines are, on a societal level, *dangerous*!
Yes, I imagine in the medium-term though, enough dissenting voices in the medical industry would find during autopsies that patients' lymph nodes or wherever are absolutely chock-full of virus, and so the pharma industry will find a way to make an extremely expensive drug that is able to purge the virus from the body, albeit I would imagine at a cost of moderare side effects - this will be something more like a chemotherapy drug, or one of the recent DNA-scrambling antiviral ones. That, I suppose would be an end point in this whole saga. Until we get to that point though, it looks like it's going to be "more of the same, but worse".
A somewhat gloomy WolfDog.
Re: Red Death scenario
Date: 2021-11-29 10:02 am (UTC)And with the (anecdotal) stories of vaccinated people going from (seemingly) „fine and healthy“ to „full on ICU/death“ within just a few days.
A very unhappy Milkyway
Re: Red Death scenario
Date: 2021-11-29 06:24 pm (UTC)Mark L
Re: Red Death scenario
Date: 2021-11-29 10:38 pm (UTC)But in the cases were viral load (in the nose/throat) could be measured, I think the load wasn‘t that much different between vaccinated and unvaccinated people (I vaguely remember at least one study where the vaccinated ones had an even higher viral load).
This seems to suggest that in the „active“ phase of the virus (or maybe: in an active phase), the bodies of vaccinated people are getting equally swamped, but potentially with less symptoms.
I suppose this would support this hypothesis - or at least not contradict it.
Or am I getting this wrong?
Milkyway, still not very happy with all of this
Re: Red Death scenario
Date: 2021-11-29 01:29 pm (UTC)Could any limitation not be because a kind of stalemate occurs within those infected whose bodily defences are impeded to mount a full scale defence (e.g. having increased tolerance and/or immunocompromised). Then after a longer term infection the virus might find itself in a less protected area e.g. testes, central nervous system and quietly(ish) hang out there for a while, even if defeated elsewhere, before causing more mischief. So many questions on this one still.
And a general question - are spike proteins generally toxic in all viruses with them or is this one a doozy?
Re: Red Death scenario
Date: 2021-11-29 07:15 pm (UTC)The better question is whether this is actually (primarily) a respiratory virus. Viruses that remain confined to the respiratory system seldom manage to persist there. Viruses that can also be systemic have a better shot at self-limiting persistence.
"And a general question - are spike proteins generally toxic in all viruses with them or is this one a doozy?"
Only coronaviruses have them, at least in a biochemically similar form such that they might be expected to have similar effects. That's a good question to which I don't know the answer, but it also depends on whether other coronaviruses are able to become systemic (beyond the respiratory system) in the way that SARS-CoV2 can.
Mark L
Re: Red Death scenario
Date: 2021-11-29 07:59 pm (UTC)And re the second aspect, yes, I think the problem is that we are either used to fairly benign cold coronaviruses, which we have co-evolved with for millenia, or fairly deadly recent ones like the original SARS and MERS, where (to use Mark's phrase above), they 'party and run', so it's the viral action rather than the spike that kills the patient, so it's hard to really assess how dangerous a 'normal' spike protein would be. Basically, coronaviruses are very strange viruses and were practically ignored until SARS came along, as they only appeared to cause colds in humans, and there was no money in making a vaccine for cold viruses when they are a) mild, b) there's hundreds of variants of them, c) they mutate rapidly and the immune response tends not to be deep enough to give lasting protection, and d) the researchers realised quite quickly in animal studies that ADE can be far more deadly than the original disease.
I did read somewhere that the spike protein binds to human cells 100 times more strongly than HIV (which was already one of the sttongest binding viruses), so that should probably tell you something - it's not so much that they are toxic in the typical sense of something like a snake venom, which actively breaks down cells, it's just that they are very 'sticky', and that manifests strongly as clotting.
WolfDog
Re: Red Death scenario
Date: 2021-11-29 09:28 pm (UTC)You're both really on this so a final question. Are there ways to keep this virus from getting through or past the respiratory tract and avoiding the whole blood vessel problem? I say this noting injected vaccines are obviously not any kind of solution to enable this and understand it is probably really hard to do unless previously infected and have good IgA antibodies about. Also guessing you don't want to have bad periodontal disease or a susceptibility to nosebleeds. :-/
Re: Red Death scenario
Date: 2021-11-29 10:19 pm (UTC)Probably, but I have no real idea what these might be. I would imagine that having a strong innate immune system with plenty of CD8+ killer T cells and NK (natural killer) cells in circulation would be helpful, as I'm sure that at least a few viruses will always make it into the bloodstream if they are in the business of infecting and lysing respiratory cells. Also I would expect that defeating the virus in the upper respiratory tract and avoiding lung infection would be critical, as the upper respiratory tract has quite a few layers of cells between the airway and the bloodstream while the alveolar wall in the lungs is only two cells thick (alveolar wall and capillary wall) with airspace on one side and blood on the other to facilitate rapid gas exchange.
Mark L
Re: Red Death scenario
Date: 2021-11-30 12:11 am (UTC)Beyond that, I'd think just strengthening your immune system as much as possible, like Mark says, would be your best bet. Flushing out the lungs with plenty of fresh air will minimise the virus from building up, and vitamin C, vitamin D/sunshine and small quantities of zinc supplements are rarely a bad idea unless specifically contraindicated by medical advice. I've seen comments on using mouthwash two or three times a day as well, which is probably a sensible idea, even if only from an oral hygiene perspective, just so long as it doesn't damage the cells there in the process (something strong like TCP three times daily would probably make things worse, though equally no one would be getting anywhere near someone smelling that strongly of TCP!)
In terms of preventing the virus from 'going vascular' which I think was your question though, that would probably be difficult - the alveoli of the lungs have, by design, a huge surface area, so it's a lot of territory to protect. Far easier to stop the virus further up, in the trachea, nostrils and mouth.
Ironically, masks *do* work, but only proper, close fitting respirators and HEPA style filters, down to sub-micron level filtration, and they are expensive and need frequent replacement. Plus, from experience in around May last year, people in the supermarket will look at you like you are insane, as it gives off quite the 'prepper' vibe. Thankfully it's quite difficult to be recognised whilst wearing one though. Anyway, a cloth/paper rag over the mouth and nose will just keep viruses, bacteria and CO2 in, not out. You don't see a lot of cloth masks in biohazard labs is all I'm saying.
WolfDog
Re: Red Death scenario
Date: 2021-11-30 08:58 am (UTC)I am currently on a daily regimen of D, C, Zinc and Quercetin. I add the odd vitamin B as well, and maybe a multivitamin from time to time.
There was a time where I would have scoffed at vitamins and so forth, but hey, I guess it can't hurt to add them to my diet and get some exercise too.
Hopefully it works.
Good luck everyone.
Re: Red Death scenario
Date: 2021-11-30 12:43 am (UTC)Interesting if not all remaining a little concerning.
Thanks again for your insight.
This is well worth a watch by the way. Pretty up to date and covers much on this thread. Geert VB plus others from 11/27:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0ad28_arr0
Re: Red Death scenario
Date: 2021-11-30 09:04 am (UTC)Also, the work of a Spanish nursing home that used conventional anti-histamines to prevent severe outcomes in all their old folks comes to mind. (Re: hay fever sprays).
I‘d say read up on the harmless, affordable early treatment and prophylaxis methods, and familiarize yourself with them. Load up on vitamin D, too.
Re: Red Death scenario
Date: 2021-12-31 12:24 am (UTC)https://www.euronews.com/2021/05/06/covid-19-is-a-vascular-disease-not-a-respiratory-one-says-study
Also:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33068723/
"COVID-19 - A vascular disease"
Re: Red Death scenario
Date: 2021-11-29 10:00 am (UTC)Re: Red Death scenario
Date: 2021-11-29 05:34 pm (UTC)There may be many contagious individuals that are running around with this thing for days/weeks before any symptoms provoke the need for a test, which would explain the meteoric rise in case numbers. To say definitively that infections are a certain subset of the population requires stagnant or decreasing case numbers. Increasing case numbers implies undertesting (or positive individuals are not quarantining).
In a similar way, to say definitively that certain treatments prevent hospitalization overall requires excess deaths to be either stagnant or decreasing but excess deaths are also up everywhere, so you still need to account somehow for these excess deaths. What would point to many untested, infected individuals suddenly becoming sick after a period of time and not even making it to the hospital?
Re: Red Death scenario
Date: 2021-11-30 09:10 am (UTC)There has been an uptick in October and November, though, and it’s much higher than the COVID deaths. There might be all sorts of reasons, however: Reluctance to go to screenings, general fear of doctors and hospitals, more substance abuse, more suicides - it would take a ton of research in what ways the policies of the last 18 months have interfered with mortality.
Re: Red Death scenario
Date: 2021-12-31 12:17 am (UTC)Isn't this exactly what we've seen with the vaccinated athletes dropping dead on the field?