Open (More or Less) Post on Covid 2

[ecosophia]

Last week's semi-open post on the Covid-19 narrative, the inadequately tested experimental vaccines for it, and the whole cascading mess surrounding them fielded even more comments than my original post on the subject, so I'm opening another space for discussion. The rules are the same as before: 

1. If you plan on parroting the party line of the medical industry and its paid shills, please go away. This is a place for people to talk openly, honestly, and freely about their concerns that the party line in question is dangerously flawed and that actions being pushed by the medical industry et al. are causing injury and death. It is not a place for you to dismiss those concerns. Anyone who wants to hear the official story and the arguments in favor of it can find those on hundreds of thousands of websites.

2. If you plan on insisting that the current situation is the result of a deliberate plot by some villainous group of people or other, please go away. There are tens of thousands of websites currently rehashing various conspiracy theories about the Covid-19 outbreak and the vaccines. This is not one of them. What we're exploring is the likelihood that what's going on is the product of the same arrogance, incompetence, and corruption that the medical industry and its tame politicians have displayed so abundantly in recent decades. That possibility deserves a space of its own for discussion, and that's what we're doing here. 

3. If you don't believe in treating people with common courtesy, please go away. I have, and enforce, a strict courtesy policy on my blogs and online forums, and this is no exception. The sort of schoolyard bullying that takes place on so many other internet forums will get you deleted and banned here. No, I don't care if you disagree with that: my journal, my rules. 

With that said, the floor is open for discussion. 

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Several people I know have gotten the covid serums. With the people I'm closest to I've noticed an immediate though subtle cognitive decline. For instance, repeated issues of judgement, more absent mindedness, more of a sort of blank and dazed look. The people that I'm thinking of have only had the serums in their bodies for a few weeks to a few months. Has any one else noticed these sorts of behaviors in people they're close to following injections of the covid serums?

[(Anonymous)]

I have seen this as well. What I find really troubling is that the people who got the shots earlier seem to have continued to display signs of intellectual deteroriation. If this holds, we might have a major problem on our hands even without ADE.

[cutekitten]

I’ve been reading you for several years and I’ve never seen you this worried.

Have you done any divination about the Covid problem, and, if so, what did you get?

[ecosophia]

Yes, I've done divinations. What I got was sufficiently troubling -- and as yet unverified by events -- that I'm not willing to publish the results. Let's just say that if my readings are correct, we're facing a tremendous mess.

[(Anonymous)]

In a comment to a last open-post I cited culianu:
https://ecosophia.dreamwidth.org/141510.html?thread=17330118#cmt17330118

I am thinking a lot lately about the deeper implications of what is happening. If current science has its origins in the 15th century science which is holistically integrated with magic. Doesn't the same principles and risk of hygiene and lack of it we have in magic and surgery apply to science.

It seems that science that lack the moral prerequisites is at least as dangerous as black magic and I wonder if it hasn't of egregore of itself, looking at its fruits it seem that other organization scientifically bent converged on the same genocidal and soul/self destructive behavior.

Somehow they seem bent to fulfill the apocalyptic/1000 yeas of paradise myth but from the antithesis position.

Do other readers of JMG feel that whole this has a strong religious, cultish behavior?

[violetcabra]

Yes, absolutely I feel this is strongly religious cultish behavior. Specifically, my thought is that modern science has focused almost entirely on thinking and almost totally ignored and suppressed feeling and relatedness. Von Franz notes that it's feeling rather than thinking that tends to give moral guidance: that is, as I understood it, people usually access their conscience in their hearts rather than in their heads. In her book on Alchemy, Marie-Louise von Franz notes the essentially religious aspect to scientific convictions about this or that theory. She and Jung also note that when people lose touch with feeling en masse that can lead to mass psychosis. As I understand it, when people lose touch with feeling, feeling doesn't go away, but rather operates below the threshold of consciousness and makes people have highly emotionally thinking without their realizing that they are engaging in emotive belief rather than deductive reasoning. Von Franz correlated this with schizophrenia on the individual level.

And so we're seeing people "trust science," --- an essentially religious affirmation --- in a highly charged, emotional way and engaging what looks to me increasingly like a mass-psychosis and a revitalization movement.

[tamanous2020]

Thanks for once again hosting and moderating this discussion on the topic.

Just a couple of thoughts.

1. It does appear that the powers that be are hemmoraging the mandate of heaven for the US. Between the debacle of the Afghan pullout and the new push for vaccinating children and the inefficiency of the vaccines, it seems like a whole bunch of resistance is forming both at the fringes and the center from disaffected neocons. I can easily imagine a big spike in covid cases, variants and lockdowns in the coming winter to be the cherry on top of it all. I'll look forward to more of your mundane astrology as a good barometer of what to expect.

2. A recent post by Dr Malone, really provides a fantastic shot of how vaccine implementation appears to heavily correlate with the rise in variants.

https://mobile.twitter.com/BJ00900324/status/1427650749736099854?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1427653987487059968%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es3_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fmeaninginhistory.blogspot.com%2F2021%2F08%2Fcan-you-grok-this.html

Tamanous

[(Anonymous)]

Does anyone know if there's a source of raw data available for any of the vaccines on market?

Freaking out

[(Anonymous)]

I'm fully vaccinated with Phizer. I was long skeptical about mRNA vaccines, but over time I was having a harder time justifying not getting vaccinated. Now I wish I hadn't. Increasingly, I am far more freaked out by mandates, boosters, censorship of everything critical of the effort and of many vaccinated acting increasingly authoritarian about it, science need not apply.

Now I'm pretty sure if they say get the booster or lose your job and freedom to move or eat, I'd say goodbye, sell my house, move in with my folks to spend time with them while they are still here, spend most of my time camping on an undeveloped 80 acres and become a hermit otherwise.

WHD

Re: Freaking out

[(Anonymous)]

I've also been resonating with the turn on, tune in, drop out idea lately. My conscience keeps nagging me though. If you give an inch, they take a mile. I ask this to the commentariat genuinely looking for opinions. With as authoritarian as things have gotten, do you think they will stop where they are, if you back off? If you drop out, and even go so far as to live off the land, do you think they won't come for you, in whatever form that means to you, eventually?

[planetpriya]

I feel a sense of defensiveness about the level of stereotyping in the media.
This article is aiming to seem moderate but makes the categories pretty rigid.
https://www.politico.eu/article/france-coronavirus-anti-health-pass-protests-10-tribes/

At this point, I hope we can find a sense of solidarity over what is authentic and life-giving, as many of the suggested measures feel like a placebo and division is definitely not helping anything... I am periodically looking for some reasurrance that the good will out. So these places help

ADE vs OAS

[(Anonymous)]

Can anyone knowledgeable comment on how ADE can be distinguished from original antigenic sin? It seems to my naive mind like they'd be hard to tell apart.

Re: ADE vs OAS

[open_space]

If you give me a good source on what antigenic sin is I might be able to help. I spent a few days with an Immunology book and the readers in here trying to understand what ADE is and how it works.

[(Anonymous)]

Thanks again, JMG; for these open posts on Covid!

Is anyone seeing signs that ADE is happening yet, or whether ADE, if it is happening, is starting to register with health authorities?

[temporaryreality]

Here's an issue that troubles your question: If variant-testing isn't conducted but all severe cases are attributed to variants, that's skewed data. It seems testing for presence of an ADE response is not something routinely done (time and resource intensive perhaps).

How do we avoid the split-narrative problem if indeed something catastrophic starts playing out and it's all blamed, on one hand, on variants and, on the other, on ADE?

I'm still looking for a satisfactory answer to that but wonder if, like so much of this horror-circus, it's going to come down to personal anecdote (unless someone deep inside the medical establishment wikileaks a bunch of ADE evidence).

I got the vaccine but oppose vaccine mandates; it's important for those who did to speak out too

[(Anonymous)]

I think it's important for those of us who did get the Covid vaccine but oppose vaccine mandates to speak out against them.

I got the J & J vaccine in April. I had some hesitation but decided to go forward with it. However, I'm much more hesitant to get any booster shots in the future. I worry that vaccine mandates will mean mandated boosters every so often too.

Re: I got the vaccine but oppose vaccine mandates; it's important for those who did to speak out too

[planetpriya]

Yep I think that too regarding boosters so for that reason alone and the corresponding acceptance of other mandates it seems like a disempowering or even dangerous step.

Sinovac

[(Anonymous)]

I think someone here mentioned that the only traditional covid-19 vaccine currently available is the Chinese one, which is sold under the name Sinovac as far as I know.

Does anybody know if and where information on its safety is available?

And how does one know that the ingredients listed on the 'bottle' are the only ones inside the bottle?

Re: Sinovac

[(Anonymous)]

There are also two Russian vaccines ( maybe three) that do not use the new mRNA technology.

Unlike the Sputnik V vaccine, which uses a modified harmless cold virus that tricks the body into producing antigens to help the immune system prepare for a coronavirus infection, the CoviVac vaccine is a "whole-virion" vaccine.This means it is made of a coronavirus that has been inactivated, or stripped of its ability to replicate.

Globally, one other major vaccine candidate - India's COVAXIN by Bharat Biotech - uses the "whole-virion" approach.

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2021-02-20/russia-approves-its-third-covid-19-vaccine-pm

[(Anonymous)]

Recently I have been really stuck by the similarities in the reactions to the covid pandemic and the terrorist attacks in 2001.
The Fear,
The absolute need to be seen doing something about it,
The demonization of anyone questioning the narrative,
The concentration of power
New government powers
The huge new subsidies for those offering solutions (no need for the solutions to actually work, just sound good,)
Bad policy that is unlikely to resolve the problem (or effectively deal with the predicament)
OOPS probably more like Bad policy that make the situation worse.
And Americans turning on one another with an “other” that can not be trusted.

It is just that left and the right switched places. We have gone from anti-terrorist authoritarianism to medical totalitarianism.

[ari_ormstunga]

This comparison has occurred to me as well. I never bought the WMD narrative either. That was also when I quit trusting the news media, they all lined up to push the BS. I was hated and despised for my stance back then, just like I am now. The dirty tricks are getting pretty shopworn. It's been a bummer to watch people who lived through all that get suckered again, but I guess fear will do that.

[(Anonymous)]

Lightning Hit Washington Monument When Taliban Claimed Victory In Afghanistan
https://southfront.org/lightning-hit-washington-monument-when-taliban-claimed-victory-in-afghanistan/

it seems that there are omens about current events, any omens about coronavirus and the vaccine, stories from the readers

[violetcabra]

That's very eerie, I just wrote up an essay in which I examine the synchronicities of Zeus' apparent hands in events --- https://violetcabra.dreamwidth.org/176005.html --- I've added the synchronicity you write of as a data point so thank you! To relate this to the theme of the vaccines, the entire scenario has reminded me quite uncomfortable of the tragic myth of Prometheus, especially given the Promethean behavior of modern science & medicine.

[(Anonymous)]

JMG - Have you seen anything over the past couple weeks that would cause you to adjust your Hypothesis post in any way? Do you have any sense of the timeline of the late phases?

[ecosophia]

The only thing that I'd add is the possibility that ADE won't be the only adverse health consequence of the serums. The study that suggests that the spike protein, once it adheres to the epithelial cells, will produce microclots has me very worried -- those can cause a galaxy of nasty consequences, ranging from heart attacks and small strokes (TIAs, in medical jargon) to little patches of cell death and necrosis all through the body, if they get jammed in capillaries.

Watch for signs that people who were vaccinated are having TIAs -- there are detailed descriptions of TIA symptoms online. If those start happening, especially in younger people, that's a sign that we may be behind the 8 ball.

[(Anonymous)]

My large corporate employer announced today that full vaccination will be mandatory for all employees returning to the office. The management sent out a formal email praising the safety and efficacy of the vaccines and assuring us that those who have not been vaccinated are a small minority (and therefore irrelevant).

I'm very new to the company and have no clout in this industry, so it's unlikely I can reach any special arrangement to work from home indefinitely. I'm not sure they can fire me over refusing the vaccine as it goes against labor law, but it would make me a pariah among my PMC coworkers at a minimum. Being singled out as an "antivaxxer" wouldn't make for a positive work environment, and I'm sure they could cobble together a termination case for unrelated reasons if they wanted to get rid of me badly enough. I'm not looking forward to arguing with them, because the groupthink over this issue is so strong that it would be like poking a nest of angry hornets. At this point, I doubt any evidence would be sufficient to convince the true believers not to double-down on the prophecy.

I live in a progressive/PMC stronghold in a country that already skews heavily towards progressivism, where the draconian vaccine passport will be implemented soon, supported by most of the population. It looks like I'm potentially facing both the loss of my job and the loss of many of my civil rights within the next couple of months unless I submit to this vaccination.

Finally, after all these years, a decision point has been reached and I can no longer remain "in the closet". I'm trying to draw strength from our cultural heroes, those who died (even sought death) to preserve their integrity. Perhaps I will soon be offered hemlock and a chance to depart for the Elysian Fields?

[(Anonymous)]

If it's your health or your job, my advice is to choose your health.

Change the dialog

[https://openid-provider.appspot.com/bryanlallen]

Saw this article on Slate: https://slate.com/human-interest/2021/08/coronavirus-vaccine-mandate-family-thanksgiving.html

The basic content is that you should insist everyone attending your family Thanksgiving gathering be vaccinated. Let’s push back on that, folks, and push back HARD.

Being vaccinated does NOT make you immune to Covid-19. The CDC says so. Additionally, the efficacy of the vaccines is rapidly diminishing, as seen in Israel and Iceland. There is a better solution.

When in France recently, my wife got, for free, a five-pack of Covid self-test kits. Here in the USA where such goodies actually have to be paid for, you can order from BigRiver or various other companies and pharmacies self-test kits for about $10 a pop. Push back HARD on anyone who says “vaccinated only for my party/gathering/get-together” and insist that EVERYONE, even the eight-year-olds, get an antigen test, either from their pharmacy or via a self-test kit. If you’re committed to having a gathering where everyone is safe from Covid, then prior-event testing is the ONLY reasonable and rational method.

Vaccination doesn’t work to prevent transmission; it is ONLY useful to diminish the likelihood of severe symptoms when you get infected. Follow the science!

What this does is put the shoe on the other foot; point out to vaccine pushers that their vaccination status is of no interest to you since they can still be a carrier of Covid-19. Show me a recent negative antigen test, and SHUT UP about your vaccine status.

Whew. Apologies for the shouting, but the foolishness has gone way too far.

Re: Change the dialog

[(Anonymous)]

It might not even protect against symptoms. The CDC is walking that back as we speak....

ADE

[(Anonymous)]

Thanks to the Ticker Guy (Here's Your (Dead) Canary (https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=243292)) we have the following: 7 fully vaccinated COVID-19 patients die in what doctors say is extremely rare situation (https://www.wesh.com/article/7-fully-vaccinated-covid-19-patients-die-in-what-doctors-say-is-extremely-rare-situation/37321628#). As the Ticker Guy says, this isn't proof positive, but it sure smells like we are seeing ADE.

Regards,

John of Red Hook

[(Anonymous)]

Well, it looks like the push for booster shots is on...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-19-vaccine-booster-shot-8-months/

– Godozo

[(Anonymous)]

JMG - what is your opinion on the serums' potential impact on those who didn't take it? Anecdotally, I've seen evidence of non-jabbed people experiencing strange effects (vertigo, menstrual cycle impacts, bloody noses) following concentrated contact with jabbed people. I am a statistician by training and am aware of statistical significance, conformation bias, etc. What I've seen personally and read about online has me alarmed. Do you have thoughts on this?

[ecosophia]

I haven't looked into it yet. Can you point me to some data?

Holding

[(Anonymous)]

I am continuing to feel extremely stressed and worried by this spectre of ADE.

One of the hard things is being unable to talk to most of the people closest to me about it, because they have been jabbed. I can't exactly be like, hey, so I came across this compelling argument that you have a high chance of dying very soon. So I have to just hold it.

I'm sure all of us on here are used to feeling like outsiders in the world and holding our own counsel on many things, especially as the general insanity has ramped up over recent years. But this feels like a new level of disparity.

I suppose there isn't one much can do other than centre oneself, stay firm and wait it out.

Of course I am in a heightened state of awareness now. Somebody under the 'Hypothesis' post mentioned how a general practitioner/family doctor reported seeing lots of cases of vaccinated people presenting with bug bites that won't heal. This week I was out with some friends on the beach and one of them had a weeping cut on her leg that she said she'd had for days and wasn't closing for some reason. The next day, another friend mentioned, with surprise, that he seemed to be coming down with a cold. At first he'd thought it was a bit of hayfever as it is the height of summer.

As I mentioned in my post in the previous thread, I know what it is like to feel the slow creep of devastating side effects from a supposedly safe medication. I was given some pharmaceutical poison when very young that left me with some very unpleasant consequences. Nothing that killed me, obviously - but it might well have done, and I sometimes wished it had.

Of course, it could be nothing, but seeing these signs is giving me an all-too-familiar sinking feeling.

Thank you to JMG for providing this space, and to everyone contributing.

- Triplet

Re: Holding

[(Anonymous)]

Triplet. I am having the same problem of not being able to talk about this. I am the only unvaccinated one in my extended family. My mom and Dad are genuinely scared that I am going to get the Delta variant and then die. They don’t understand why I won’t get the vaccine. I say it is brand new and untested. I don’t say it might cause mini blood clots and ADE which could kill you all and most everyone else that I love. It is kind of a difficult situation.

[planetpriya]

I watched something by several doctors that suggested micro clots was a potential huge issue, it all feels like a precipice...

[open_space]

It does, just remember that fear won't help you if things go south. Anxiety and stress will only make you less prepared to face any situation! I only say this because this is how I feel too, not trying to be condescending.

A Related Divination

[(Anonymous)]

I think it was the Magic Monday before you posted the original Hypothesis post, I asked you about a divination about me leaving the country, due to my concerns about the future of the American healthcare system and the cultural craziness, in which I was told to sit tight.

If this turns out to be even a fraction as bad as you worry about, then one way or another my reasons for wanting to get out of Dodge may be rather moot — that, or I'll end up a refugee in whatever country will have me, which would also fit the divination in question.

Re: A Related Divination

[pam_in_florida]

Do you mind if I ask what country you are considering? I, too, have been thinking about leaving and
heading to Baja, Mexico at least for several months but probably long term. I am concerned about doing this before there are vaccination requirements to enter each state. Not sure it will get that bad, but who knows.

[temporaryreality]

Toward the end of the last open post I mentioned that I'm copying the comments from one of Naked Capitalism's commenters over on my blog. He's an internal medicine doctor who's been treating Covid patients throughout this whole thing and he has a perspective most of us don't have: medically trained, but in an earlier era (it matters, as his comments point out), savvy about statistics and the data found in medical studies, on-the-ground experience and a willingness to rethink his positions. I've found his narratives worth reading and useful for pointing out issues in the logic being pushed at us and for directing readers toward sources where they can do their own research.

Anyway, the first group of his comments is here: https://temporaryreality.dreamwidth.org/12927.html
Yesterday I put up the first "feature" NC posted in which they put forward IM Doc's critique of the Pfizer study. It's here: https://temporaryreality.dreamwidth.org/12927.html

I'll be posting subsequent comment threads and the one or two other "features" in which he speaks out. I'm closing comments on these posts at my blog because I think the conversation would better serve all of us if it remains here.

[(Anonymous)]

Second your recommendation of imdoc. His comments have been invaluable.
Also, Michael Lewis’ book on the pandemic, The Premonition, is terrific. A lot of background and insight on how we got here

What to watch for

[(Anonymous)]

On the last open post I shared a list of possible issues with the vaccines. This is much of the same info but in a different format, in terms of what signs we should be watching for.

----------

What to watch for:
Covid illness rates among vaccinated people increase over time, approaching rates in unvaccinated people.

What it means:
1) Waning immunity, or
2) Immune escape variants

Is it happening?
Yes

Possible solutions:
1) Booster shots to infinity - a real-time experiment on the human population with no clinical trials to demonstrate safety, or
2) Stop the vaccination push until we can develop better vaccines that do not have this problem. Accept natural infection in the meantime.

--------

What to watch for:
Elevated incidence of vascular problems, neurological problems, and/or other symptoms among vaccine recipients.

What it means:
Vaccine biotoxicity, likely due to spike protein.

Is it happening?
Yes, although the risk/benefit tradeoffs vs. covid itself for various risk groups are still somewhat unclear.

Possible solutions:
Limit vaccination to high-risk groups, while continuing development of vaccines that don't have this problem.

------

What to watch for:
Positive correlation between vaccine coverage and Covid-19 caseload, in comparisons between nations or regions.

What it means:
Vaccine-enhanced viral spread (likely due to suppression of symptoms in the absence of infection prevention, in effect creating more asymptomatic carriers)

Is it happening?
Unclear, but the fact that many of the world's most vaccinated countries currently have the highest caseloads is reason for suspicion.

Possible solutions:
Stop the vaccine rollout to the rest of the world until we have vaccines that are not "leaky" in this way.

-------

What to watch for:
Worse Covid-19 disease outcomes in vaccinated vs. unvaccinated people. (Or possibly also worse outcomes when infected with other, similar viruses.)

What it means:
1) Antibody-dependent enhancement (ADE) via. viral infection of immune cells, or
2) Antibody-dependent enhancement (ADE) via. immune overactivation (cytokine storms etc.), or
3. Original antigenic sin (ingrained antibody production pathway for original virus precludes adaptation to new variants)

Is it happening?
No clear data yet; some evidence from molecular modeling that it is possible, and limited clinical indications (e.g. vaccinated patients with severe illness not responding to MATH+ treatment protocol). Past attempts to develop coronavirus vaccines suggest a high risk of ADE, and it may appear during waning immunity or upon emergence of new variants.

Possible solutions:
Stop vaccination campaign, focus on prophylaxis (e.g. widespread ivermectin use?).

-----

What to watch for:
Increased incidence of autoimmune disease among vaccinated people.

What it means:
Vaccine-induced autoimmunity (i.e. self-targeting antibodies)

Is it happening?
No evidence yet that I am aware of; however autoimmune problems can take years to develop.

Possible solutions:
Stop vaccination and boosters.

------

What to watch for:
Accelerated emergence of Covid-19 variants of concern in regions with a high vaccination rate.

What it means:
Vaccine-driven viral evolution.

Is it happening:
Quite possibly, e.g. https://twitter.com/ConeyLinguist/status/1427654829439078406, although definitive proof will be impossible for this one.

Possible solutions:
Develop less leaky vaccines; avoid vaccinating during periods of high viral prevalence.

----

Mark L

Re: What to watch for

[(Anonymous)]

Shouldn't just one of these happening be reason to stop the vaccination?

Changing to a war footing

[(Anonymous)]

Two things to note.

1. The Canadian government will not disclose why two scientists working for the National Microbiology lab were fired in 2019. They were somehow connected to the Wuhan virology lab but records remain sealed.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/torontosun.com/news/why-the-government-secrecy-behind-the-winnipeg-lab-firings/wcm/9a17fde2-4d40-43a0-8af0-c30d7012c143/amp/

My Coworker recently expressed in candid terms (that she has never before been so blatant about previously) that the American narrative around Covid will soon change and there is a war coming. We will see the narrative start to change in the media first apparently. Also she mentioned Trump was right and the election was stolen. This is coming from a white Canadian social worker. I don't know what else to say.