Magic Monday

[ecosophia]

It's getting toward midnight, so we can proceed with a new Magic Monday. Ask me anything about occultism and I'll do my best to answer it. With certain exceptions, any question received by midnight Monday Eastern time will get an answer. Please note:  Any question or comment received after then will not get an answer, and in fact will just be deleted. (I've been getting an increasing number of people trying to post after these are closed, so will have to draw a harder line than before.) If you're in a hurry, or suspect you may be the 143,916th person to ask a question, please check out the very rough version 1.0 of The Magic Monday FAQ here. Also: I will not be putting through or answering any more questions about practicing magic around children. I've answered those in simple declarative sentences in the FAQ. If you read the FAQ and don't think your question has been answered, read it again. If that doesn't help, consider remedial reading classes; yes, it really is as simple and straightforward as the FAQ says. 

The picture?  I'm working my way through photos of my lineage, focusing on the teachers whose work has influenced me and the teachers who influenced them in turn. I'm currently tracing my Martinist lineage.  That's rendered complex by the Martinist tradition that one does not name one's initiator, so we'll have to go back through less evasive routes. Both of the last two honorees, and most of the other Martinist lineages in existence, were also taught and influenced by this man, Robert Ambelain, a prolific writer and occult scholar whose work extended from astrology and Freemasonry to Druidry and Martinism. Ambelain was born in 1907; he became an astrologer in the 1920s, proceeded to become a major figure in the Martinist scene and a bishop in one of the French Gnostic churches, played a central role in reviving several defunct occult orders, published 42 books, and earned the Croix de Guerre for his service to France during the Second World War. He died in 1997.

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With that said, have at it!

***This Magic Monday is now closed. See you next week!***

Comments

Re: Asatru Folk Assembly

[jprussell]

So, I do not have any close contact with AFA and I may be mistaken, but I was also taking a look at their website after they came up in one of last week's comments as an example of an organization focused more on doing its own thing than on decrying others.

From what I've seen then and now, AFA is a "Folkish" group. Folks like the SPLC will tell you that "folkish" is just code for "racist," but folks who use the label mostly have a more nuanced way of describing it, but it's one of the lightning rod issues among Germanic polytheists. My understanding is that those of a folkish persuasion believe that 1) most religions do/should have some link with the ethnicity that historically practiced it, 2) that worship of the Germanic Gods is historically linked with people of Northern European ethnicity, and 3) it's right and proper for at least some modern groups to insist that if you want to be a part of this historically-ethnically-linked religion, you should be a part of that ethnicity.

Now, notice I used "ethnicity" here, in part to skate around the core issue that causes most of the fighting: by "ethnicity," do we really just mean race? From what I've gathered, different folkish groups come down on this differently. Some seem to really mean "it's for white folks," others want you to have some amount of ancestry from Germanic-language speaking countries, and some seem to embrace a more cultural definition of "ethnicity" - if you speak a Germanic language (like English) and were raised in culture predominantly shaped by a Germanic culture (like America coming from England), then sure, you're part of the Folk.

What seems to cause most of the fighting is a combination of two factors: 1) the fact that any kind of White/Germanic ethnicity exclusivity is viewed as morally repugnant by many folks these days, no matter the fine points, and 2) the belief that such beliefs are attempts to put out up respectable front for secret full-on, Hitler-loving, goose-stepping, Sieg Heiling Nazism. This is not helped by the fact that some actual, self-describing Nazis have adopted some Germanic polytheistic beliefs, practices, and symbolism, which leads some folks to treat all Germanic polytheistic beliefs, practices, and symbolism as potential dog whistles for Nazism, and doubly so if folks start talking about what blood you have or what soil your ancestors came from.

Now, for the AFA specifically, I have seen some video clips of its founder, Steve McNallen, saying some stuff that sounds rather a lot like actual white supremacy (not the current hot definition, but what folks would have meant by those words a few decades ago). I do not know the degree to which he's still involved, whether he still holds those beliefs, or if they have anything to do with what the AFA teaches or does now, but it was enough for me personally to think "maybe this isn't all PC nonsense." I just haven't looked into it much since then.

Sorry for not having anything more definitive, but I hope this helps!

Re: Asatru Folk Assembly

[brenainn]

Thanks, Jeff! This is quite similar to what I've discovered so far. I did see some clips from McNallen that struck me as borderline as far as White nationalism/supremacy might go. But having some controversial views on race does not necessarily make one a racist. Do you happen to recall where those video clips can be found? They might not be the ones that I saw, and so it might provide a clearer picture of the situation. McNallen retired as leader of the AFA in 2016 (I think) but I do not know how active he is in still guiding the organization. That said, the current leadership still speaks quite highly of him (and that might be quite justified, for all I currently know) and so I'm guessing the AFA's current teaching is still heavily influenced by his thought.

FWIW, I'm mostly finished with reading McNallen's book "Asatru: A Native European Spirituality." I haven't found anything overtly racist, or even anything I'd think of as covertly racist. But maybe I missed something.

I suppose my primary concern would be if the AFA actually condones (in secret or not) hatred for non-White races and/or teaches that the White race is superior to all other races. At least, that's how I'd define actual racism.

Re: Asatru Folk Assembly

[jprussell]

Hmmm, I'm not positive, but it might have been one of these two videos by Ocean Keltoi:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6SXC2mRS34
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLpFU9J1mfk

As you can tell from the titles, he does equate Folkishness with Racism, and he's against it. For some context, Ocean Keltoi seems to have some very progressive views, but in all the videos I've seen of him expressing them, he's done so in a measured and mostly respectful way. So, there's a definite viewpoint there, but he doesn't seem like a ranting ideologue. As such, I might recommend trying to find a pro-McNallen source to compare this with, if it does have the clips I vaugely remember.

Re: Asatru Folk Assembly

[brenainn]

Thank you for the links, Jeff. I'll watch them later this evening. As far as a pro-McNallen source, he's got a lot of videos and writings out there. It might be best to go to those primary source materials, since I won't have to factor in another individual's biases (for or against him) when trying to understand his thinking. Well, other than my own biases, that is.

Re: Asatru Folk Assembly

[brenainn]

Having reviewed the videos, the clips shared in them of McNallen are from the videos of his that I watched. Some of the stuff does seem borderline, but I do not think (and especially placed in context of his larger work) that these make him a White supremacist or a hateful person. While Ocean Keltoi might be a respectful progressive, I think that progessivism is an inaccurate lens through which to view the world. Criticism rooted in it are of dubious validity to my mind. No offense is intended to anyone by that comment. But that's where my thinking is at.

I have watched a few of Ocean Keltoi's other videos. Interesting fellow. I imagine that he wouldn't like me very much.

Re: Asatru Folk Assembly

[jruss]

One thing to remember with McNallen, he has worked to help Tibetans, Native Americans, Indians, Palestinians, etc. preserve their culture. He has stated he sees the same attempts to remove European Culture as the others and now wants to focus on protecting that, he claims (and I agree) European Culture alone seems to be the only one that is politically incorrect to defend.

As far as AFA they are racialist, but I don't think racist. The difference being they have no hate for other cultures or peoples, they are like Hasedic Jews interested in their own in group only.

That said they can be a bit puritanical. I'm blocked by them on twitter for sharing anime porn, being a white dude following Shinto and other Asian religions amongst other things.

Also one AFA member was kicked out for not disowning his Transgendered child.

Re: Asatru Folk Assembly

[(Anonymous)]

Maybe I should have said I belong to the Odinic Rite which does have people in the US.
The AFA has done well it's much bigger and if you are after community that's where I would go.
Steve McNallen has written constantly about Love of people not hate of others.
The non folkish heathen groups I have been involved with, have tended to be very progressive very woke and very intolerant.
Cealin

Re: Asatru Folk Assembly

[brenainn]

Thanks for both of your comments, Cealin. I am inclined to agree with much of what you've written. Since I do not think it is racist or hateful for Amerindian (and similar indigenous/ancestral) religions to be restricted to Amerindians, I do not think that forms of Asatru that have a similar racial/ethnic component are necessarily racist. As I said in my reply to Jeff, I think White racism involves actual hatred for non-White races and/or a belief that the White race is superior to all other races. So far, I'm not finding anything like that in the AFA's teachings.

Re: Asatru Folk Assembly

[(Anonymous)]

In perusing Natural Magic I have been studying (but not practicing) Hoodoo and came to a thought that may apply here.

It seems we have two systems of Hoodoo, Open and Closed. Now I MUST stress this point every clearly - Open is not superior or inferior to Closed and visa versa. Let me say this again one is not better then the other.

If you forbears practiced a form of spirituality that you are rediscovering and you are very fortunate to have a living mentor or written instructions then you can approach that spiritual discipline with a different slant then someone who has no cultural connection with it.

Now reading about the AFA - I get the sense that we may have two concurrent systems that embody what Buddhist call the "Two Truths". How that would play out would depend upon ones starting point.

For example if you decided to connect with Odin and you had no ethnic connection, no in depth knowledge of the theology and no connection with people who practice then you would need to follow an "Open Odin" path - initiation, cultural study, dialogue and respect for those who practice would be baseline behavior. If in the process you get the hint that this is not for you then be respectful and move on.

If you were born into AFA and know people who practice and have a good, if unrefined idea of it and follow the culture then you can participate in the "Closed Odin" path - I would presume a lot of the formalities would be unnecessary but it would require a different process of study and spiritual dialogue and untimely an evolution of the very meaning of the AFA faith for yourself.

There are a lot of shades of grey in this - I am half Scandinavian by blood but culturally I grew up in multicultural polyglot southern California. I would not presume the "Closed Odin" path at all.

Re: Asatru Folk Assembly

[brenainn]

That is an interesting way of looking at it. One thing that did occur to me before is that it is possible to have both a folkish and open version of Asatru, and for both to be legitimate forms of the religion. This is especially so if there is more than one god who answers to the name Thor or Odin or so on. I suspect the situation of multiple Jesii isn't limited to deities named "Jesus."