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ecosophia
I'd like to thank everyone who took part in the discussion about why people joined the Druid organization Ar nDraiocht Fein (ADF) and why they quit. All things considered, it was a thoughtful and serious conversation, and I know Steve T (the reader of mine who's interested in founding a new religious organization for Druids) got a lot of very helpful feedback from the discussion. As he processes that, we can move on to the next stage. Whether or not you were a member of ADF, dear reader, if you were looking for a Druid religious organization to join, what would you like to see in it, and what would you emphatically not want to see in it? Obviously there's going to be a lot of divergence in the answers to that question, but a conversation on the subject is well worth having as part of the search for perspectives and insights that precedes the work of building.
Once again, this is a topic about which some people may have strong feelings, and may not express those with the courtesy and thoughtfulness I expect from my commentariat. For that reason, any attempt at trolling, concern trolling, derailing, flamebaiting, or other bits of online gamesmanship will be deleted. This post is a place for people who are interested in thinking aloud about a future Druid religious organization can do so. Those who don't want to participate in that conversation are welcome to go somewhere else -- and those who might want to interfere with that conversation are welcome to go shinny up a stump. 'Nuf said.
(no subject)
Date: 2020-06-27 03:08 am (UTC)- I'd like something with plenty of room for solitary practice. Not everyone is well suited to group activities, and some of us would rather eat live tarantulas than go through round after round of group meetings.
- I'd like something that makes room for Christian Druids. I'm not one, but I know quite a few of them, and I've never understood the attitude that insists that you can take any deity for your patron but Jesus. At the same time, appropriate protections need to be put in place to keep anyone from forcing their god on anyone else.
- I'd like something that doesn't pretend to be ancient. The Druid Revival has been around for 300 years; that's ample heritage to claim.
- I'd like something set up to minimize internal politics. The more energy needed for internal group management, the less will be available to worship the gods. If there have to be elections, let them be at long intervals. If elections can be avoided, even better. A lot of nonprofits have a board of directors that appoints its own new members, and ordinary members can vote with their feet if they don't like the existing policies; that might be a model worth considering.
Doubtless other possibilities will come to mind, but that's what surfaces right off the bat.
(no subject)
Date: 2020-06-27 03:47 am (UTC)Isn't this the model of the AODA as well?
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Date: 2020-06-27 04:02 am (UTC)- I would love to see the option for group activities spanning the whole spectrum from little potlucks to discussion groups to dance parties.
- I would like to see diversity of religious options: that is, that there might be a place for mystics, mages, occultists and other sorts of devotees, solitary practitioners, etc.
- I would like the organizational structure be such that no one has to attend a meeting if they simply want to passively participate.
- Of course, I would really want piety to be front and center, with a lot of care and attention to detail, especially if there were to be group rituals and the like.
- I would be interested if there were a space for religious specialists: if someone were highly skilled in magic or excellent at horsing deities, it seems like it would be ideal if the organizational structure could be flexible enough to allow folks to bring these gifts to bear in various religious contexts. As a condition to this, I imagine there would need to be some evaluative process to determine people's skill levels, or perhaps initiatory levels of membership. Also, the ability to incorporate people's creative gifts in general such as music, art, poetry etc.
- In polytheist spaces I've seen some straight up demonolatry. I would want there to be something to prevent someone's whose "patron deity" were a demon from participating in any way whatsoever. This might be a little tricky to find the best wording -- for instance I strongly feel from my studies that the Titans cannot be equated with the Qlippoth -- but I've seen enough straight up, unambiguous demonolatry to be extremely wary of an "anything goes" sort of attitude on this point.
- I would want there to be a general atmosphere of competence, care and skill as part of the egregore. Balancing this, I would want a general atmosphere of enjoyment, interest, and levity as part of the egregore.
- I would really not want things to always be super serious, stuffy, and formal. I would hate to have every group religious activity a serious magical ritual where I had to think a lot about getting everything right or watching other people perform. I.e., I'd really want the space for dress-up dance parties in honor of Dionysus, and all sorts of bonfires, and even parades!
- I'd really love it if there were space for some BBQs!
(no subject)
Date: 2020-06-27 12:37 pm (UTC)In relation to "passive participation" I would be attracted to an organisation that is open to people approaching and expressing their piety in a variety of ways, including the traditional "layperson" way, which is to be able to be present at, and participate in, well run, regular grove ceremonies (say), while happily being able to leave the deeper layers of study an practice to those who are seriously called to mysticism, magery or sagery. (And yes, if there is also lots of room for those so called to develop and excel, too, to the benefit of the group egregore as a whole).
I was thinking about this in terms of "flake" filters, and it seems to me that to strong a "flake" filter would exclude such ordinary would-be "lay" druids, which an organised "church" probably wants and needs (which distinguishes it from the schools organised to train those of a bent for serious study and practice, and which need such "flake" filters.).
What is needed instead some sort of "predator" filter. 1) to prevent what Violet is calling "patron demons" 2) to operate excellent ritual hygiene aimed at leaving no random energy lying around that might attract opportunistic predators, whether of the human kind or the non-human kind from showing up to feed. The prevention of this second occurrence, of course, will lie in the skill of the religious specialists in designing rituals that both raise AND PROPERLY DIRECT energy. That is to say, if the group's piety centres on blessing the living earth, then the group's rituals need to ensure that all energies raised are directed at blessing the living earth, and none are left lying around for passing opportunists.
Personally, I'd like to attend group rituals, well planned and executed by religious specialists who understood what they were about, and I'd like to be part of a piety that is focussed in some way on blessing and connecting to the living earth, throughout its many planes of existence.
I would like to be free to be a non-specialist lay person in such a set up, and to do background things like organise the potluck suppers ;) etc, while knowing that the specialists who are overseeing the ritual practices are trustworthy and know what they are about.
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Date: 2020-06-27 05:14 am (UTC)I came up with:
- Periodically hearing what other people are doing with their practice could help avoid getting into a rut
- Solitary practitioners are typically short of sanity checks and FAQs have an odd habit of only penetrating the cranium when forcefully read out loud by someone else ;)
- On the flip side, solitary practitioners lack opportunities to teach. A mentored environment to experience their practice as a teacher would be very valuable.
I feel the above point to some kind of open lodge night or just a periodic meet and shoptalk at a local pub. A buddy system or round-robin correspondence course might also be something to look into.
(no subject)
Date: 2020-06-27 06:28 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2020-06-27 07:00 pm (UTC)Religion puts relationships with deities at the center of the picture. We can define religion, in fact, as the body of human knowledge about how to relate to deities. So a Druid religious organization would be a Druid organization that puts prayer, worship, and other ways of relating to deities at the center of its teaching and work.
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Date: 2020-06-27 09:07 am (UTC)Can I ask for some clarification about what the idea of a "Druid Religious Organization" means? I'm not quite getting what this new organization will be for. I understand that it will be about being part of a community that labels itself as “Druid”, connecting with the divine and each other through worship. But I don't quite follow who is being worshipped here.
There are a multitude of Christian Druids; there was mention in the previous thread of "kin" in the ADF, and conversation seems to be suggesting that this will be a polypantheonic endeavor. Is it that deities primarily traditionally associated with Druidry are made central and the main focus of worship, but worship of other deities in one’s own time is condoned or encouraged? Is the main practice “any deity goes” (Christ, Hellenic pantheon, Shinto, Cthulhu, Flying Spaghetti Monster, all ok) but members would share a ritual framework or unifying philosophy of some kind?
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Date: 2020-06-27 10:20 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2020-06-27 07:01 pm (UTC)Religion puts relationships with deities at the center of the picture. We can define religion, in fact, as the body of human knowledge about how to relate to deities. So a Druid religious organization would be a Druid organization that puts prayer, worship, and other ways of relating to deities at the center of its teaching and work.
Protection of the Commons and Its Folk
Date: 2020-06-27 11:34 am (UTC)One thing I’d like to see is protection for members against organization-wide witch-hunts. Perhaps something like the enforced Protection of the Commons you mandate on your blogs (making Ecosophia quite possibly the healthiest place on the internet, for which I’m also grateful). While rules ought to be in place for the protection of other members from the truly dangerous (one such rule my own Grove enforces is that no underage person is allowed to attend without the presence of their legal guardian, ever, at all, end of sentence), members suspected of wrongdoing or wrongthink should not be subjected to unregulated pogroms that ultimately excommunicate such people without trial and make it effectively impossible for them to practice their religion. I’ve seen it happen more than once within ADF (which is a big part of why I left, as it directly hurt the lives of a number of people I’m close to who were innocent of any wrongdoing*), and while the opposite of any bad idea is always another one (which we’ve seen in recent decades from the RC church’s papering over of their own numerous scandals), surely there’s a middle ground where the innocent can be protected while actual malefactors can be dealt with with a tempered balance of both justice and mercy.
*I didn’t want to get too deeply into my reasons for leaving on the other post, as they’re long, complex, and painful, and so didn’t comment, but as I’ve touched briefly on them here I’ll address the other half of the question just as briefly and give my reasons for joining. These were, simply, that a) an actual established Grove of ADF druids practiced regularly only a short distance from my house, whereas the two OBOD seedgroups I was a part of were significantly more distant, and less committed to regular ritual; and b) I did and do appreciate the basic ritual structure of sacrifice, prayer, and divination that treats the Gods as actual individual beings with which one might have an ongoing productive relationship. Prior to that I had only been familiar with the church of my childhood and with OBOD’s seasonal rituals, which while excellent for nurturing relationships with the natural world and the turning seasons, seemed to lack the element of personal, communicative, reciprocal relationship with deity that I found so nourishing in Christianity.
Re: Protection of the Commons and Its Folk
Date: 2020-06-30 12:05 pm (UTC)A Healthy and Positive Egregore
Date: 2020-06-27 11:54 am (UTC)I personally think chat rooms and forums shouldn't be allowed because that's where the low astral state of the internet comes in and creates a tragedy of the commons in the egregore.
That said, if a solitary practitioner wanted someone to correspond with, there could be an email mentorship program. One page on the site could list the mentors and their credentials, what courses they've completed and what gods they worship.
I'd love a page of books developed to help solitary Druids, like the Book of Common Prayer for Christians, and maybe resources on discursive meditation and how to focus the will.
Pioneering research
Date: 2020-06-27 01:05 pm (UTC)I heard you mentioned previously that you would love to know the magical properties of the black walnut tree. I think having a category in the Druid order that identifies and works with a pool of intriguing research that hasn't been done yet could bring a sense of adventure and direction to the solitary Druids experiences. Notes could be compared, experienced Druids could suggest methods, new discoveries could be journalled...nothing too big or formal of course.
(no subject)
Date: 2020-06-27 01:36 pm (UTC)—Guidance and mentorship.
—Opportunities for fellowship (a solitary path doesn’t necessarily mean 100% alone).
—Opportunities to teach (and learn from) others, both formally and informally.
Nothing that hasn’t already been raised, but I wanted to voice my support.
—David BTL
General Comments
Date: 2020-06-27 02:14 pm (UTC)Not getting swept up in external politics. For me, this was the thing that turned my general dissatisfaction with the general dysfunction into a reason to leave. Given the diversity of political views on any given Ecosophia post, this really shouldn't be too hard.
I agree with JMG and others that internal politics should be one notch away from non-existence, and that elections are not necessary. Checks and balances are important in a government, but voting with your feet is sufficient for a voluntary organization with zero coercive power.
Like JMG, I'm not a Christian, and like JMG, I'd like them to be explicitly included. Naturally, other divine pantheons are perfectly welcome as well.
But like Violet, I don't want demonolatry, and I would not be willing to participate in a group that included interactions with Demons and other explicitly evil beings. This is a little complicated, because a lot of people who leave monotheism want to leave behind excluding principles altogether, and because there isn't much agreement about the place of figures like Loki. On the other hand, something like agreeing not to perform curses as a condition of membership might be sufficient here.
(Aside: I believe that JMG exited the Neopagan scene back when classical Neo-Wiccans were still in control, but these days the "cool kids" don't think it's a real ritual unless the Devil is invited, and "no curses" is quite literally the single most offensive thing you can say that doesn't involve race or gender.)
(no subject)
Date: 2020-06-27 02:46 pm (UTC)1) A system for setting up what might be called "focus groups". The groups might be oriented around a particular topic of study/activity or they could be oriented around a particular geographic region. People could set them up and other could join in mutual support.
2) A system for reporting on the work of others in the organization - their success and failures. Other members could attempt to replicate their results. This was a terrific means of both encouraging study and practice and providing inspiration for study and practice.
3) A system of degrees in which one could stop at second degree and that was considered completely acceptable. I would push that a bit and argue that there should be two systems of recognition. One for recognition of initiate degree and another for service to the organization.
4) You've got to bar politics at the door. These days that can be really tough. It is a favorite tactic by some actors to join an organization or online group with the express attempt to plead victim status and demand that the organization take a position on that status. If the organization refuses then they are denounced as in league with oppression. If they acquiesce then that just sets up the organization for additional demands.
Specific Request
Date: 2020-06-27 02:54 pm (UTC)One of the big things that drew new members to ADF is the desire to have some kind of guidance for exactly how to go about talking to gods. Most people I met have tried a little on their own and definitely want independence, but also really aren't sure if they are going about it correctly (or, functionally) when they're flooded with pop-culture images of prayer as asking for favors without actually expecting a response on one hand, and blogs on the internet where people claim to sit around and play video games with the gods* on a regular basis on the other.
Here and there you've given instructions for how to actually start a relationship with a god, including Jenny's Practice (I know that I, and at least a few others, picked that up by name but to different gods after reading the WoH), planetary worship with the Orphic hymns, and variations between the two as appropriate to specific circumstances.
So what I would really like to see, and what I think would really help such an organization, would be a quick handbook that complied those instructions into a "how to begin having relationships with gods" resource, ideally with instructions for how to address a specific god you have in mind (such as Jenny's Practice), how to work with a number of powers in a balanced way without needing to have a specific one in mind (such as planetary worship), and how to make general offerings in a single ritual (such as how you've suggested burning incense to all the Olympians when people have asked about Hellenic practice). Naturally, you write what you want to write and that's subject to what you have time for and what you think is worthwhile, but I think it would fill a big gap if you saw fit to author it.
---
*:I'm skeptical, but I guess I can't prove it's not true. In any case, I don't think it's a good general expectation . . . .
Re: Specific Request
Date: 2020-06-28 12:19 am (UTC)Re: Specific Request
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From:Land based spirituality
Date: 2020-06-27 03:24 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2020-06-27 03:28 pm (UTC)Another poster mentioned banning politics. In past climates that may not have been necessary, but in this one, it's a welcome suggestion. Members could of course carry on private discussions with other members via email, but I would like to see the actions of leadership and the organization be as politically agnostic as possible.
While I do like solitary practice, it would be nice to have a well-moderated forum on the website for members to interact and make connections. That's perhaps getting too far into the nuts and bolts, but it's something to think about along the way.
My overall note is that the organization remain open and flexible about most things, but willing to clamp down on individuals and practices that are potentially toxic to the group, with those being well-defined up front.
Pondering organizations i.e. pagan ones
Date: 2020-06-27 03:31 pm (UTC)I have belonged to three pagan groups - Nova Roma (NR), ADF, and Grey School of Wizardry (GSW). (Disclaimer I am a Level 6 student of GSW (7 levels) so yes I have an investment of time in the school.)
What I have gleamed from the three:
Be very clear about your mission statement. Why do you exist? What do you want to achieve?
NR wanted to be a micronation, and couldn't move beyond that.
GSW does want to be a school. It has succeeded in that.
ADF was unclear as to what it was.
Who has ownership of the organization?
NR, the man who has the land. He couldn't let go and let it expand.
GSW, the Headmaster who has conducted purges.
ADF, Bonewits and his original group.
What transfer of power is there? Who has the stakeholding?
NR tried to restore or recreate the Roman Republic, and the power devolved into coup d'etats with a lot of infighting, still going one
GSW, the Headmaster. The teachers have a mass resigning about every six years.
ADF, Bonewits transferred it to Ian C. who still have the major stake holding. Power seems to stay within the original group. Only one ArchDruid was not of the group, and he had major problems.
How are the solitary members sustained.
NR, not very well. Focus was on politics and micronation.
GSW, very well.
ADF, not well.
What did GSW do differently? recognized that their base was all solitaries using the internet. Set up forums, and divided the solitaries into smaller groups. Had volunteers for each of the small groups. Checked in.
Problem with all of them is the entrenched group stayed in power. GSW had mass teacher leavings, which did change the focus of instruction.
What does a successful organization do?
Robert's Rules of Order
Allows for input from new people.
Discourages ownership of anything - i.e. the expert on Indo-European languages or Roman religion.
Encourages more people to participate.
----
Druid Organization is off putting to me since my focus is Roman/Mesopotamian. I do want to explore Polytheistic theology and the like.
Re: Pondering organizations i.e. pagan ones
Date: 2020-06-27 07:06 pm (UTC)That sounds very like they *did* recreate the Roman Republic, complete with infighting, coups d'etat, and ... any hint of rival gangs fighting in the streets of Rome? Rich members buying elections outright?
(From a fan of Roman History, with great emphasis on what I call The Dying Republic Saeculum. Clodius & Clodia, Crassus, Pompey, et. alia)
Rome
From:Re: Pondering organizations i.e. pagan ones
From:(no subject)
Date: 2020-06-27 03:58 pm (UTC)- Room for solitary practice, that was designed for solitary practice. Especially in the beginning, it might be better to build things assuming you will mostly have solitary practitioners and a few stray small groups where enough of us happen to be living near each other. The large in person congregation, if it happens to come, can be accommodated at a later date.
- I'd like a better focus on every day piety, as opposed to High Day celebration as though it were the be all and end all of religious practice. I liked the Sunday service at the grove I used to belong to, something like that wouldn't be a bad idea. Build a religion that is more than just an excuse to party eight days a year, and otherwise left on the shelf (not saying don't have the parties, just that there should be more to it than just the partying).
- If you get to a point of needing membership dues, keep it as affordable as you can. Some of us are poor.
- No restrictions on my ability to be a member of other groups, or what gods I can worship (even outside of the organization). No oaths requiring me to forswear any allegiance I had to groups/deities from X, Y, Z pantheon (I've seen things like this in some reconstructionist organizations, it's always an instant no).
- I like the idea of a written in stone from minute one rule that the organization will take no official position on outside political issues/events so don't even ask. I think discussion of outside politics in group should be, maybe not banned altogether but kept closely in check.
- Steve mentioned priesthood and ordination on offer. If we're going that route, I'd like to see some discussion on what priesthood means to us. As opposed to blindly copying the Christian model of ritual leader/mediator to the gods, counselor and marriage officiant. As JMG has said in a few places, wannabe Pagan clergy have been trying to offer that model for a while now and few people ever really seemed to want it; with NeoPaganism completing its destruction and the alternative religious scene set to become uncool and hence smaller, I imagine that demand will be even less from here on out.
Though I know others here will be more familiar with this than I am, I've read about the GCC, I like the monastic idea as an alternate option. Personally, I feel called to something, but I don't have the personality type, the social skills or even any interest in being a group leader, counselor, etc. I don't know that the GCC is right for me either (I'd need to look more into it, talk to people, etc.), but it's closer as something private, centered more on the gods and intense worship than social interaction. I'd love to see options like that considered, or even multiple paths to priesthood.
- Don't put everything on Facebook. And, if a Facebook group develops, don't allow all important discussions to only take place there because its users don't want to have to go visit another site.
- Only include rules you are willing to actually enforce. If you don't want to get into personal conflict between members, fine; don't say you will and then, when some issue does come up, keep passing the buck around hoping everyone will eventually forget about it. Don't set out rules of conduct and then allow one person and their terrible, disruptive behavior to hold the group hostage because you're too afraid to tell them to knock it off or get out.
- I'd love to see some training programs develop, even if that's probably a long way off.
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Date: 2020-06-27 07:09 pm (UTC)Celtic culture
Date: 2020-06-27 04:34 pm (UTC)I have to admit I never understood why ADF calls itself a Druid order (using a Celtic language) when their cultural scope goes well beyond Celtic culture. they should have been called Indo-European Polytheist Fellowship or something along the lines... Hellenic, Germanic or Roman druids sounds to me like a misnomer to be honest.
Regarding Christian Druids, I know some folk would class themselves as such, including the vast amount of early Revivalists and the former Archbishop of Canterbury, but I guess this particular Druidry is more of a cultural, philosophical, magical or spiritual one, than a religious one (can't see Rowan Williams praying to Esus, Lugh or Ceridwen!). There's certainly a strong tradition of Celtic Christianity (perhaps a better suited term than Druidry?), and I can see no contradiction in Christians (or Muslims, or Buddhists) joining a non-religious Druid order; but a religious one?... I think it would be better suited to those who are comfortable establishing a relation with Celtic gods.
Manuel
Re: Celtic culture
Date: 2020-06-28 02:47 am (UTC)That said, I’ve always been pretty confused by the ADF moniker of ‘Druid’ as well. I guess it’s just a holdover (or hangover) from the RDNA days that just never disappeared, but they certainly have always been more broadly Neopagan in vision and approach, and as far as anything more specific is concerned, the idea of a central World Tree-as-axis mundi is far more Norse than it is Celtic...
Re: Celtic culture
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Date: 2020-06-27 05:48 pm (UTC)what are religious organizations for, actually? I'd be interested hear some of the options. I grew up in a Methodist church - but young me felt very much outside whatever possible religious experience others might've been having.
If I speculate, I can come up with a few things:
Like Violet said - a way to involve mystics, mages, occultists, sages (...adds the rhyme-maker).
Method(s) and fellowship that are less beholden to charisma and more directed toward the celebration and cultivation of wisdom, relationship with the divine, and creativity in the service of life.
Training toward appropriate use of power (both within ritual and on the mundane level).
Speaking of training - dedicated emphasis on every members' development (don't just join and then sit there feeling smug about yourself, do some actual work!). So, initiation, rites of passage, ordination, or what have you.
Beauty.
Good works, generosity.
Maybe some sort of institutional... allowance or encouragement or acceptance of regional/congregational differences, oddballness, or flavor - but with the ability to jettison unhealthy offshoots without the mother-ship being pulled down if some branch goes off the deep end. (how's that for mixed metaphors?).
An organization friendly to all ages.
(maybe more later, but that's what I have for now)
(no subject)
Date: 2020-06-27 07:17 pm (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2020-06-27 06:51 pm (UTC)My inputs
Date: 2020-06-27 07:33 pm (UTC)-A mostly monastic solitary focus for training, after training, ordination options and participation in leading group ritual. Leadership or administration or "government" should be extremely limited.
-A focus on Nature, with room to develop relation with Deity of choice. Relationship with Deity perhaps springing forth from a focus on nature.
-Study of Druid revival
-Christians allowed, and welcomed.
-No Demons
-No discussion of politics.
-Mentoring system.
As far as setting up structure, one option is using Freemasomry as a loose template. After study and memorization/ work in the basics that all have to accomplish, other areas of specialization and focus within the organization and even other Druid Revival organizations encouraged. In other words room for specialization, with a strong network so that we can get people where they need to be or want to explore.
(no subject)
Date: 2020-06-27 07:52 pm (UTC)