Magic Monday

[ecosophia]

Once again, it's technically Monday now -- past midnight Eastern time -- and here I am on Dreamwidth, so it's time for another Magic Monday.  (The picture is W.E. Butler, one of Dion Fortune's students and a major teacher and writer about occultism in his own right.)

Ask me anything about occultism and I'll do my best to answer it. Any question received by midnight Monday Eastern time will get an answer, though it may be Tuesday sometime before I get to them all.

With that said, have at it!

***This Magic Monday is now closed to new questions. See you next week!***

(And, by the way, closed means closed. I had someone else try to put through a question on Wednesday. If you've got a question on any day but Monday, please save it for the next Monday!) 

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

What is the origin (if known) of the visualization of expanding until one is standing on the 1’ diameter sphere of the earth?

Was there a different way of doing the same thing, when people’s concept of the world was based more on their lived experience and less on abstract knowledge that they live on a spherical planet? (I would imagine that, though it has been known for a while that the earth is round, this fact only fairly recently became so prominent in our everyday concept of where we are.)

[ecosophia]

The expansion visualization is apparently quite recent. It's not included in the original version of the Lesser Ritual of the Pentagram in the Golden Dawn papers, in Crowley's version in Liber O, or in Butler's The Magician: His Training and Work, which latter was my introduction to the ritual. I find that I'm not sure where I got it -- it's been part of my practice for many decades, but I read a vast amount of magical literature back in the day.

The thing is, you can cultivate the lived experience of being on a spherical planet; it doesn't have to be abstract. Lie on a grassy hill sometime on an early summer evening when the Moon is already up and the evening star is visible, and make an effort to realize that you're not looking up from a floor, you're looking out from the side of a sphere, and the Moon and Venus and the Sun are also spheres, whirling through deep space. Do it with suitable intensity and it won't be abstract any longer...

Combining natural magic

[(Anonymous)]

Why is it so much easier to combine natural magic systems than ceremonial magic systems? For instance, the diaspora of Native American, West African and European natural magic in the south seems to work successfully by your comments, yet you were skeptical last week of ceremonial systems combining East Asian and European magic especially when it came to energy work. Is this because reconciling the different philosophies and morals of the two cultures is not possible because they are not close enough or that they have not had close enough contact for long enough? Or is that they have not formed a hybrid culture. Do the "Barbarians at the Gates" tend to be the forerunners of magical innovations?

Re: Combining natural magic

[ecosophia]

Hmm. I've tried to explain this repeatedly and I'm not sure where the confusion is coming from. The problem is specifically with combining those aspects of East Asian magic that move life energy through the body and those aspects of Western magic that do the same thing, and the difficulty is that combining them can mess with your health. That's the issue. It doesn't apply to the rest of ceremonial magic, as far as I know; it's only, and specifically, that running energy through the body in two competing fashions can cause serious trouble to the subtle body. Thus it has nothing to do with reconciling philosophies or morals, or the length of time the cultures have been in contact; the problem is comparable to the problem you get when you take two medications and their side effects interact in ways that make you sick. Does that clarify things a bit?

[(Anonymous)]

I have been working through the Druid Magic Handbook for nearly a year, and have recently started to use the SOP for practical purposes and practice the Grove ritual. My visual imagination, which was nonexistent (I could imagine sounds, sensations, spatial relationships and such; I could not picture light, colours, or imagery) is still tenuous and weak.

Is it best to wait for my visualization ability to catch up before proceeding to anything more advanced? Or is it fine to compensate with other imaginal senses?

Also, do you have any insight into why people have different levels of ability to visualize, and what factors of upbringing influence this?

[ecosophia]

By all means compensate with the other imaginal senses. There's no reason to wait for an improvement of your visualization that may or may not occur. As for why different people have different capacities for visualization, I don't know that anybody knows the reason; it would be an interesting subject for research.

[jenniferkobernik]

Hi JMG,

In my copy of The Druid Magic Handbook, both Alban Arthuan and Alban Heruin are listed as being associated symbolically with the new moon, and none of the stations with the full moon. I am assuming that this is an error and that Alban Heruin should be associated with the full moon and Alban Arthuan with the new moon, but I wanted to confirm that before proceeding in error. Thanks!

[ecosophia]

You're quite correct -- that was in error. The full moon is to the moon what the summer solstice is to the sun.

Natural Magic

[(Anonymous)]

I am currently reading your Encyclopedia of Natural Magic, and liking it very much. My question: do you know of any magical remedies that herbalists or lore masters of yore would have used against persistent dizziness, i.e., vertigo? If not, can you refer me to any traditional texts that might treat the topic?

Kevin

Re: Natural Magic

[ecosophia]

That would traditionally have been treated as a medical problem, and I don't offer medical advice, because people do jail time in the US for practicing medicine without a license; the medical profession is very protective of its lucrative monopoly. I encourage you to consult a health care practitioner licensed to practice in your state.

Astrological question

[(Anonymous)]

I have a question concerning a natal horoscope, my own. If the cusp of the second House is in Aquarius, how does that affect the situation of the native? In my chart, the cusp of that House is in the last degree of Aquarius. There are no important celestial bodies in the House, nor in that sign.

Since (I gather) Saturn rules Aquarius, I infer that the status of that planet may be relevant. He is well placed by sign, in the first House, but afflicted by aspect and retrograde.

I’ve done quite a few searches online in hopes of discovering the answer for myself, but so far only Vedic astrology sites give any answers in depth, and that is not a tradition I have been working with.

Re: Astrological question

[ecosophia]

Okay, first of all, my take these days is that Uranus rules Aquarius. Where's your Uranus placement, and how does it relate to the other planets in your natal chart?

Second of all, you're probably not going to find the information you want online; most online astrology sites are very shallow. Pick up any good introductory book on astrology -- my personal fave is Llewellyn George's A-Z Horoscope Maker and Delineator (not The New A-Z etc., which has been messed with) -- and look up, in order, Aquarius on the 2nd house cusp; your Uranus placement; and the various aspects Uranus makes with other planets. Write down what each entry says -- unless you have a phenomenal memory, you'll lose too much if you don't do this -- and then take some time to work out a combined description of the effects. (This is called "synthesis," and it's a basic astrological skill.)

You'll notice that this is going to take you probably an hour or so of close attention and serious thinking. That's why I don't do astrological readings on my journal for free. ;-)

[(Anonymous)]

What do you think of the bicameral theory of conciousness?

[ecosophia]

Interesting but simplistic. The whole "left brain-right brain" thing has turned out to be a drastic oversimplification of the complexities of brain function, so Jaynes' theory, which is based on that oversimplification, badly needs reworking in the light of current brain science. The thing I liked about Jaynes' book, though, is that he paid attention to the evidence that ancient people really did have conversations with their gods; his failing, and it's a common one, was in failing to notice that quite a few people still do, and that in the Middle Ages personal encounters with spiritual beings were just as common as they were in the times he studied.

[(Anonymous)]

You said you were very impressed with the results of the Masons' and other fraternal groups' youth training programmes. How do these programmes work and are occult methods part of them?

[ecosophia]

No, occult methods aren't part of them! The youth groups I've seen use a far more straightforward method. The essence of it is that each such group has a colorful initiation ritual that the kids themselves perform, and each such group also manages its own affairs via elected officers under adult supervision. So each boy or girl who gets involved in such an organization has a chance to learn how to speak in public, how to handle basic organizational politics, how to handle the responsibility of an elected position, how to make commitments and stick to them, and how to interact constructively with other kids in a variety of situations, some of them stressful. Half a dozen years spent doing those things is enormously beneficial to any young person who can handle social interactions at all, and leaves them much better prepared to deal with adult life than the kids who never get such experiences.

Witchcraft

[(Anonymous)]

Hello!

What is your understanding of witchcraft and its practices? And what are the major differences between that and magic as practiced by druids and all?

PS: I am aware that these could be far too general questions, but try your best.

Karim

Re: Witchcraft

[ecosophia]

Okay, to begin with, the word "witchcraft" means two completely different things. First, it means the folk magic practiced among European and European-diaspora working class communities from the late Middle Ages through the Victorian era. (Call this W1.) Second, it means a new religious movement that was launched by Gerald Gardner in the late 1940s and has proliferated in various directions since then, not all of them directly descended from Gardner's work. (Call this W2.) The new religious movement originally claimed that these two things were the same thing, but every assessment of the evidence by people who don't have a vested interest in that claim has shown that there's basically no connection at all.

W1, witchcraft as it was practiced by working class folk magicians in the European world, was a mixture of local folk traditions with medieval and Renaissance high magic: it's indicative that for three centuries, the most popular book used by English witches was the English translation of Cornelius Agrippa's Three Books of Occult Philosophy, a textbook of Renaissance high magic. W1 was also explicitly Christian -- witches used Christian and Jewish names of God to do their magic, and there's precisely zero evidence of the worship of non-Christian deities in those social strata at that time. (Pagan worship was, as it remained until very recently, an interest of well-off intellectuals.) There are plenty of good books on W1; one that I particularly like is Jim Baker's The Cunning Man's Handbook: The Practice of English Folk Magic 1550-1900.

W2 is very widespread just now, but it's never greatly interested me and you'd be better off asking someone who does it. As for its relation to Druidry, that depends on the witch, and also on the Druid! I know some Druids whose practice is strongly influenced by W2, and others (I'm one of these latter) who don't use W2 at all.

Watcher on the threshold

[(Anonymous)]

Thank you for magic Monday.

Dion Fortune wrote in Mystical Kabbalah ch 22: “This brings us to the great question, which might almost be called the Dweller on the Threshold of occult science, the horror which confronts every adventurer into the Unseen which unites in itself the functions of the Sphinx, and asks a question of the soul upon the answer to which hangs his fate. Shall he be condemned to wander in the realms of illusion? Shall he be turned back on to the planes of form, or shall he he permitted to pass on into the Light?”

Despite being interested and feeling a strong pull towards occultism my whole life, I have had, what I believe to be, several encounters with The Watcher in which I have recoiled in fear.

Is this an indication that my practice is not yet enough and something that can be overcome by perseverance in study and practice, or should I take it as indication that I do not have the constitution, and relent?

Re: Watcher on the threshold

[ecosophia]

You have to make that decision yourself. To borrow a turn of phrase from a once-iconic book, fear is the first enemy of a person of knowledge. That fear is the Watcher. If you overcome it, you begin to walk the path.

[violetcabra]

Hi JMG,

I'm curious if you know of, or have speculations, on the astrological attributions and magical uses of pine, especially the eastern white pine that abounds in New England?

My thoughts: Matthew Wood emphasizes pines usefulness for improving breathing, even just by walking underneath them. This would indicate Gemini to me. They are associated with the risen Solar God in the depth of winter which is quite Solar, and Dion Fortune considers them to be a Dionysian incense, another solar reference. They produce a golden sap which can be burnt as an incense by itself, or at least I did growing up.

Pine is calming, it increases contemplation and the ability to breath. Interestingly, I've read that people tend to be less comfortable in pine forests than under broad leaf trees. Catherine Yronwode suggests fresh pine needles in a bath to remove mental negativity, an indication I'll have to try tonight! She apparently uses it in a general purifying way, with the note that the smell of pine tends to draw money, which I would imagine would indicate a potential Jovial influence.

So I'm inclined to see pine as solar, but then could easily be convinced that it is more useful to see it as ruled by Jupiter (like cedar) or Saturn (Yew and Myrrh).

As always, your perspectives and thoughts are much appreciated. If other readers who have worked with pine in natural, astrological or ceremonial magic want to weigh in I'd be delighted.

[daveotn]

You might consider that the Eastern White Pine, specifically, also has a strong association with peace in the Iroquois tradition - the five nations that united into one confederation sealed their agreement by burying their weapons beneath a white pine. Dana Driscoll has written about white pine on her blog here: https://druidgarden.wordpress.com/2017/12/03/sacred-tree-profile-white-pines-medicine-magic-mythology-and-meanings/ where she mentions the Western sources you've found as well as the Native American associations.

[tumeric]

I walked into the Theosophical Bookshop the other day to buy the Cosmic Doctrine, and was umming and ahhing about also getting Halls Secret Teaching of the Ages.
Not knowing where to look, as I walked in I turned left and within 2 seconds my eyes found the Halls book. (I rarely look at that shelf when in there)
OK, that's a pretty good sign to buy the book which I did.

I've always thought of it as trusting the universe/god/whatever, and noticed if you exercise that, it gets stronger.
Back when I used to meditate allot that sort of thing (like synchronicity) used to happen allot. But I never understood it.

What is that? How does that work?

[ecosophia]

Nobody knows for sure. There are various theories, but as with most of what goes on in the universe, all we know for certain is that it happens, and the more you engage with the spiritual, the more it happens.

Deity names

[orathbone]

Dear JMG, I have a question about the use of the various names of deities in magical rituals and prayers. For instance Hu Gadarn can be Hu the mighty or Heu’c. I’m sure there are more variants and of course the ones originally used in pre-christian times are likely to be different again.
My question is does any of this matter and when one calls on a deity how specific is this call? Or to put it another way are Hermes, Mercury and Wotan all the same power, variations of the same power, or individual powers? Are Ceridwen and the Virgin Mary both the same mother goddess or different aspects of one goddess, or quite separate?
If the specific name or variant of a name is not that important how does one decide which to use?
I’m probably over thinking this as in practice it all seems to ‘work’ but it’s still a nagging intellectual issue for me.

Re: Deity names

[ecosophia]

The thing is, we don't know. All of human knowledge can be reduced to statements on the order of "when we do X, Y generally happens, and we have a crude mental model that we use to explain it to ourselves."

In practical terms, the choice of a name depends on a range of factors. Heu'c is used in the Druidical LBRP because that needs names of four letters. I'd invoke Ceridwen rather than the Virgin Mary because I have no initiatory connection with the latter (I was never baptized) while my main spiritual tradition works quite a bit with the former. And I'd call on Hermes or Mercury for help with an alchemical working, rather than Wotan, because the latter isn't traditionally associated with alchemy and the two former are.

Working with a goddess

[(Anonymous)]

Hi John,
I’m undertaking the OBOD course. As part of my regular meditations, as part of the coursework, I visit a grove. Earlier this year I met a goddess who agreed to help me and provide guidance as I move forward, not just as part of the course but in life generally. Over time I have come to realise, as part of various visions and answers to questions I posed, that in previous lives we knew each other very well, and were very close, and there is no doubt there is a strong bond between us. Have you ever met a goddess/god that you knew in a previous life and was willing to work with you?
Thanks

Re: Working with a goddess

[ecosophia]

That sort of thing happens all the time. It isn't something I've had happen, for reasons rooted in my own previous lives, but I know a lot of people who have such connections. It's an advantage, and I'd encourage you to cultivate the relationship.

Initiation

[(Anonymous)]

Hi JMG,

I am getting ready for my initiation ceremony for Ovate in CGD and am noticing a couple of things.
A) I'm surprisingly frightened, or at least that its bringing up some emotional feedback that is interesting. Im also finding it fascinating to look at how far I've come, but as it's been a while, it's hard to know what changes are from the work and what are the results of other things, like getting married. I won't list the experience and insights here but there are many. I'm not sure it's valuable to pull apart and do a forensic examination of what caused what changes, unless you think that is useful? However, I do what to give appropriate acknowledgement to the work.
B) I've not done much formal initiation, but it always struck me as doing one was to be recognised in a new way (like getting married) by others. I'm wondering if I am missing something by doing this initiation privately. While I acknowledge the value of self practice AND that I am the primary agent in my development - they are what count, I'm wanting to ensure I give the initiation it's due honouring, fit for the order. What are your thoughts on this?

Kind regards,
Edward

Re: Initiation

[ecosophia]

(A) there's no need to analyze everything unless you want to.

(B) it's an important part of this initiation that it's not public. Yes, there are some kinds of initiation that are about redefining your relationship to other people, but this is not that kind of initiation. This initiation is about redefining your relationship to yourself and to the spiritual realms, and it's important to the work that it's not a public event, that it's entirely private to you and the sacred powers with whom you work, and that it defines part of your life that is shared only by you and those who have done the same experience themselves.

Hair

[saturns_pet]

JMG and All:

I have excellent hair. It's a Shiva-level hairdo situation. It makes me curious about what my ancestors were up to in Canada in the 1800s but that is not my question. lol. But my question is about my hair.

Please consider the following in a context of natural magic as you've described it in your fine book.

If I were to make a part of my ample locks available for a wig for a person in need of a prosthetic hairdo, then would I need to do anything to prevent any etheric and/or astral links from bonding me to that recipient and/or influencing them by some 'sympathetic' action?

Anyone wearing a wig made from my hair would, if that hair retained traces of my spirit, be going for an odd ride, and perhaps even develop a durable case of that dreaded pseudo-lycanthropy! I might need a warning label for that wig if it comes to be...

Of course now I want to call it a Wig Of Wyrding +3 and ink an image of it in that old TSR-era style. Shout out to all who remember THACO!

NaCl Or Bust,

Saturn's Pet

Re: Hair

[ecosophia]

Wash your hair thoroughly in cold water with a little salt in it before you have it cut, and you'll be fine.

[(Anonymous)]

Hi, happy Monday!

Can tarot cards be used to communicate with land spirits?
If not, what is a way they can be communicated with?

Thank you for your time.

[ecosophia]

Depends on the diviner. Have you tried it yet?

[(Anonymous)]

If you had sufficient resources to do research in any areas of magic you wanted, what areas would you concentrate on?

[ecosophia]

The ones I'm working on right now. If I need resources, I generally get them.

[(Anonymous)]

In my meditations and invocations, I have been hesitant to involve myself with certain gods and forces -- among these have been Mars/Ares and the, shall we say, less thoughtful aspects of violence, war, and conflict (cf, Athena). In my reading of Fortune's _The Mystical Qabalah_, however, her discussion of the Sephiroth Geburah gave me pause and I am wondering if my avoidance is unhelpful. Could you speak, if only briefly, to the efficacy of engaging with Mars/Ares and similar deities or aspects?

Many thanks.

David, by the lake

[ecosophia]

Ares is the great taboo in our culture, but he's also an essential part of human existence (and especially, ahem, of male human existence). If you don't deal with him, he doesn't go away -- he just influences you without your being aware of it. Deal with him consciously and integrate those aspects of yourself into the whole, and you have a source of immense strength and vitality that can be consciously directed by the rest of yourself.

Magical Battle of Britain

[(Anonymous)]

Hi, JMG. I’ve recently been reading The Magical Battle of Britain, which I find absolutely fascinating. But while reading it one question has come to my mind: while British mages, under the leadership of Dion Fortune, were able to tap into the centuries-old cultural images (e.g., associated with the legend of King Arthur) to strengthen and unify the British “race”, I wonder how, or if, such a thing would be possible in colonial countries (e.g., USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand), where the ancient cultural images are Indigenous (and not known to the majority of the population) and the “newcomers” have not been in these countries long enough to have created deeply-held cultural images that are unique to the colonial country in question. Perhaps I am wrong re: the USA, having had a distinct identity longer than the other countries listed above -- but I am not American and cannot really say.

So, I guess my question is: if a colonial country’s very existence is threatened by a foreign power, would the technique used by Fortune and company likely work? If not, could some other working be produced that would likely have a similarly powerful effect? I know this question is terribly hypothetical, but I figure it is worth a shot!

Ron M

Re: Magical Battle of Britain

[ecosophia]

Nope. The Matter of Britain is specific to the land of Britain. Each region of the Earth's surface has its own spiritual dimension, which doesn't transplant. Part of why colonial countries like yours and mine tend to end up in various kinds of messes is that the European colonists, being Christians, didn't learn about the sacred places and energies of the new land on which they settled -- quite the contrary -- and so we have no roots into the deep places of the land, and no access to the kind of energies Fortune could call on. That'll resolve itself eventually, but a lot of time will pass and a lot of blood will be spilled first.

If your culture has emotionally evocative images that relate strongly to its collective identity, it might be possible to do a working with those; here in the US, for example, the Statue of Liberty is such an image. If not, you're out of luck.

[(Anonymous)]

Just looking for a little clarification on the Heathen LRP:

Elemental correspondences -
Gungnir - Air
Gjallar - Water
Sumarbrandr - Fire
Draupnir - Earth

Banishing
top - bottom left - center right - center left - bottom right - top

Invoking
top - bottom right - center left - center right - bottom left - top

Is this correct? Also, what do each of the points of the pentagrams mean?

[ecosophia]

That's correct. The points of the pentagram are assigned to the elements as follows:

Tarot books that complement the cabalah / golden dawn?

[joviangate]

Thanks for directing me here from your other Ecosophia page, I've had some questions answered by checking out the journal entries here.

Question 1: Is there a book or author you'd recommend for more in-depth tarot training that complements the cabalah and golden dawn traditions?

Question 2: I'm extremely happy you're developing a non-abrahamic based system. For those of us who are "godless" at moment, should we just call out and try different pantheons till someone responds, or is better to start with your ancestral/heritage linked pantheons first? (From my ancestry DNA test german/French/dutch so the pagan version you're working on is on my first try and see what happens list, I'm also Czech so perhaps using the Slavic pantheon if the norse pantheon doesn't work?)

Question 3: I'm drawn to the thoth tarot in spite of Crowley's many "quirks." Anything noteworthy to be aware of for using it as a layman?

Thanks!

Re: Tarot books that complement the cabalah / golden dawn?

[ecosophia]

1) It's been so long since I was doing basic Tarot training that I have no idea what books are available, or whether they're any good. Sorry.

2) Don't worry about your ethnic ancestry when it comes to deities. I'd say start by reading the myths of those pantheons that seem to appeal to you, and see if one set of stories speaks to you more powerfully than others. Then pray to whichever deities in that pantheon seem appropriate, and see what kind of answers you get.

3) It has the personality of its maker, so it'll try to bully you. If you can discipline it, though, it's a good deck.

[mesosylvania]

I have a few questions:

1. On Alban Heruin, I officially began my Druid Magic Handbook practice. It's been going fairly smoothly, however I find the divinations fairly difficult. I realize the idea is to take the divinatory meanings of the Ogham Fews as a springboard for intuiting the reading for the day, however I'm having trouble interpreting the three few layout. If the reading is " What do I most need to know about the day before me?", I've been reading the three positions as: past influence on today's most important situation, present/what's going to happen today/the situation itself, future/how the situation will most likely end up. I did notice that you have a different three few interpretation in your Coelbren book, as well as copious helpful examples, but I didn't want to mix systems, so I didn't use it. Do you have any pointers or differing interpretation methods, or example Ogham reading interpretations that could help break open this layout for me?

2. I read your response to someone asking about intuiting information about lesser known dieties such as Mabon. Would you have any additional comments if someone seems to have had a few flashes of inspiration regarding what appears to be a new diety or power? A few years ago, while driving through the Southern Indiana countryside, contemplating the future of the region, I got a flash of an image and a name, and a vague idea of this being's purpose, which is intimately tied to the Ohio River valley region. I also intuited that in order to get to know her better, I would need to meditate daily, go into into nature daily, and burn or smoke tobacco once per week. Do you have any thoughts on how best to approach something like this, and avoid most potential dangers?

Thank you so much!
-Anthony from Mesosylvania

[ecosophia]

1) Try making the first few the situation, the second one you, and the third one the outcome; that works well for me. Also, you've only been practicing it for a few weeks, and unless you're much more talented than most people, that's not long enough to start getting clear answers.

2) You'll have to decide if you want to follow it up or not; that's important work, but whether it's your work or not is another question. The major dangers are (a) becoming a religious fanatic, and trying to force your deity down everyone else's throat, and (b) losing your grip on material reality and needing institutionalization. Those can be avoided by maintaining what Philip Carr-Gomm calls the three mystic senses of Druidry: common sense, a sense of proportion, and a sense of humor. Above all else, if you find yourself thinking of yourself as special, holy, called to some grandiose destiny or other, or the like, run the other direction as fast as you can; that way lies madness. (I mean this quite literally. I've seen people go down this road and end up with a fine case of florid, violent paranoid schizophrenia with a strong megalomaniac component.) Beyond that? Don't take up the work unless you're prepared to do it for the rest of your life.

[(Anonymous)]

Two related questions--

1) In medieval literature I often see the four elements associated with the four seasons with Water corresponding to Winter and Earth to Autumn. For example, Jacobo de Voragine, writing on the reasons for the Ember Day fasts, writes:

"The sixth reason is for the printemps is likened to the air, the summer to fire, harvest to the earth, and the winter to water."

This also matches the correspondences that I learned studying Chinese qigong and medicine, though in this case Wood takes the place of Air and Metal Earth, with Earth rather than Spirit as a central pivot.

What would happen if one were to construct a variation of the LBRP based on either of these systems? Would the variance in the elemental placement (Water in the North in both cases; Wood, Metal, and Earth taking the place of Air Earth, and Spirit in the latter) cause the ritual to fail? And, if so, would that be because of the energetics of it-- Something about setting opposite elements across from each other leading them to canceling each other's energy, maybe? Or would it be a matter of pushing to hard against the larger LBRP Egregore, which is built around the Air-Fire-Water-Earth system?

2) Building from that... When I think about possible alt Golden Dawns, I sometimes think (this is a long range thought and maybe for another incarnation) of a Medieval Catholic Order of the Golden Dawn, using works like Cosmografia as a source, which could make use of an alternative Latin LBRP, and could invoke the older saints and the various "allegorical" medieval Christian goddesses-- Noys and Endelechia and Natura; Caritas, Sapientia, Ecclesia and so on. Maybe that's more of a comment than a question. Even further in the back of my mind is a Taoist Golden Dawn, using as a starting point the correspondences I mentioned above. Do either of these things seem possible to you?

[ecosophia]

1) Yes, and there are other attributions as well, to the extent that you could probably assign any element to any direction. The medieval system you've quoted works very well for medical purposes in southern and western Europe, where the autumn tends to be dry and the winter wet; in other places, you'd want to use a different order for healing purposes. Meanwhile the Pentagram ritual has its own order, which works very well in practice, so I'd recommend keeping it.

2) If you were suddenly to be in a situation of serious personal danger, would you invoke Noys et al. to help you? If so, then by all means consider such a magical system; it would probably work for you. If not, I wouldn't recommend it. As for a Taoist system, I was told by a Seattle Taoist many years ago that he knew of such a system being worked by Chinese-American occultists in the San Francisco Bay area, so that's apparently quite viable. What I'd most like to know is whether they use divine names with four Chinese characters in the Lesser Ritual of the Pentagram!

[ecosophia]

Edward (offlist), you've just put through the fourth copy of the same comment to this thread, and I've already responded to the first one! If you'll look upthread a ways you'll find your question and my answer there.