Magic Monday
Feb. 26th, 2023 11:36 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
ecosophia
It's almost midnight, so we can proceed with a new Magic Monday. Ask me anything about occultism and I'll do my best to answer it. With certain exceptions, any question received by midnight Monday Eastern time will get an answer. Please note: Any question received after then will not get an answer, and in fact will just be deleted. (I've been getting an increasing number of people trying to post after these are closed, so will have to draw a harder line than before.) If you're in a hurry, or suspect you may be the 143,916th person to ask a question, please check out the very rough version 1.0 of The Magic Monday FAQ here. Also: I will not be putting through or answering any more questions about practicing magic around children. I've answered those in simple declarative sentences in the FAQ. If you read the FAQ and don't think your question has been answered, read it again. If that doesn't help, consider remedial reading classes; yes, it really is as simple and straightforward as the FAQ says. The picture? I'm working my way through photos of my lineage, focusing on the teachers whose work has influenced me and the teachers who influenced them in turn. Like Allan Bennett, who we discussed last week, this week's honoree was a teacher of Aleister Crowley. George Cecil Jones was the man who introduced Crowley to the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, and later on helped Crowley found the Argenteum Astrum (Order of the Silver Star, or A∴A∴), the first of the two magical orders the Not-so-great Beast headed during his lifetime. (The other, the Ordo Templi Orientis or OTO, will be discussed next week.) Jones was a working chemist and metallurgist as well as a serious student of the occult. He practiced the magical virtue of silence more effectively than most of his contemporaries, however, and very little seems to be known about him.
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"Hail Idun" Variants, and Any Questions of Which to Ask More?
Date: 2023-02-27 05:38 am (UTC)I hope everyone's having a lovely late winter/early Spring.
To Share: I'm a bit stuck on my "Hail Idun" prayer for my Heathen Rosary, so I've put out three variations I'm thinking over. Any thoughts anyone here has on them, either as prayers or as poems (or both) is most welcome: https://jpowellrussell.com/#asking_for_help_with_hail_idun
To Ask: JMG, any topics you wish got asked about more often/in more depth here on MM?
As always, thanks very much to JMG and everyone else here.
To any who will have them, I put forth my blessings and best wishes,
Jeff
Re: "Hail Idun" Variants, and Any Questions of Which to Ask More?
Date: 2023-02-27 05:41 am (UTC)Re: "Hail Idun" Variants, and Any Questions of Which to Ask More?
Date: 2023-02-27 09:57 am (UTC)Thanks for your remarks on the Open Post. I read "The Tower". This part stuck out to me:
As I read it, the author says life with flu is not worth living. He also calls flu "greater agony" and "pain". I was very surprised by this. To me even a bad illness is not depressing. And flu is a light illness, where you can enjoy books or a short walk while you recover. Is the experience of illness so different between people?
What do you think of the quoted fragment above?
Re: "Hail Idun" Variants, and Any Questions of Which to Ask More?
Date: 2023-02-27 05:39 pm (UTC)I have a clear memory of the first time I had flu as a child, and consciously wanting to die. This is a pretty common feeling when one is that ill.
It's possible you have never experienced an illness this painful. May you continue to be so blessed.
--Ms. Krieger
Re: "Hail Idun" Variants, and Any Questions of Which to Ask More?
Date: 2023-02-27 07:06 pm (UTC)Re: "Hail Idun" Variants, and Any Questions of Which to Ask More?
Date: 2023-02-27 08:13 pm (UTC)The symptoms and 4-7 days duration are familiar. I've been feverish and weak, and waking up midnight in sheets wet from sweating. The muscle consuming part is really noticeable: a heavy flu is quite a setback in one's condition.
Not pleasant, but I couldn't imagine describing it as "agony" or "pain". With flu I can read a book or daydream about a sunny place. I can compare myself to someone in a worse condition, and be glad it's just the flu.
Thank you for confirming that "wanting to die" is not just the author of Hotel Concierge's way to describe the experience. Many blessings for your health.
Re: "Hail Idun" Variants, and Any Questions of Which to Ask More?
Date: 2023-02-27 09:11 pm (UTC)—Princess Cutekitten
Re: "Hail Idun" Variants, and Any Questions of Which to Ask More?
Date: 2023-02-27 06:06 pm (UTC)As for the excerpt, I think he's choosing what he hopes will be a reasonably relatable example for the broader point that the experience of pain/discomfort/suffering in the moment is not at all the same as the memory thereof. Specifically, I think there might be a few things going on here: 1) folks really do differ in how "tough" they are, whether due to life experience, disposition, or whatever - maybe you've suffered worse and so being sick doesn't seem so bad!, 2) there's likely a bit of hyperbole for comedic effect and/or to garner sympathy going on, both by the writer and by folks who are sick saying things like "I don't want to live!", 3) many folks use "flu" for any illness worse than a cold that primarily presents as respiratory and stomach problems, whereas I think he's referring to actual influenza, which can range from "I had a mild fever and a stuffy nose" all the way to "I can't eat, my whole body aches, and I can't really sleep because I'm shifting between feeling freezing cold and burning up due to a high fever." I suspect he means more the upper end of the spectrum there (I've had a flu like that, and while it was miserable, I didn't "want to die").
More broadly, even if that fragment is more extreme than I would characterize that situation, I do know that I've had situations where I consciously know "this too shall pass", but it's hard to really *believe* that and accept it fully in the moment of suffering. Then, looking back, I remember having those thoughts, but they seem ridiculous in hindsight. Like that flu I mentioned - I was on a business trip, and so stuck in a hotel room and miserable for a few days. I remember *that* I was very uncomfortable and not liking it, and I remember that time seemed to pass very slowly, but now in hindsight, those experiential aspects are fairly week and vague.
Re: "Hail Idun" Variants, and Any Questions of Which to Ask More?
Date: 2023-02-27 07:56 pm (UTC)Thanks for your reply! The hyperbole explanation is a good point. Some good writers blow things out of all proportion, just to get people to pay attention, or open new pathways in their thinking.
Re: "Hail Idun" Variants, and Any Questions of Which to Ask More?
Date: 2023-02-27 04:14 pm (UTC)A few notes:
These are lovely
You seem well learned on Germanic and Anglo-Saxon Literary conventions, but a few I would offer to spice things up and make the lines flow more readily is making use of Sprung Rhythm which organizes lines by a number of feet but an indeterminate number of syllables. Gerard Manley Hopkins practiced with it extensively and claimed to have discovered it in nursey rhymes, but to my knowledge, not a lot of people have taken up the torch. This is a shame because it is perfect for making language sound more... raw, for lack of a better term
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprung_rhythm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Germanic_and_Latinate_equivalents_in_English
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_purism_in_English
Something else that makes English poetry sing is varied repetition. I don't know why this developed, though I have a few guesses which are not particularly relevant. If you have the option to repeat a word or use a synonym, do the latter. There are places for literal repetition, but the soft repetition of multiple similar names help the reader or the faithful form deep associations about what is being expanded upon.
Additionally, I know you've looked deeply into the Western Christian Literature on the Rosary. The Christian East has no such tradition to speak of, though there is a so-called rule of St. Seraphim which is a plagiarized rosary. The "Hail Mary" in the Greek, Syriac, and Slavonic speaking east may be a source of inspiration:
Rejoice Virgin Mother of God,
Mary full of Grace, the Lord is with Thee
Blessed art Thou amongst women
and Blessed is the fruit of thy womb for Thou hast given birth
+ To Christ the Savior, the Redeemer of our Souls.
Which compares thusly:
Hail Mary, full of grace
The Lord is with Thee
Blessed art thou amongst women
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary
Mother of God
Pray for us sinners
Now and in the hour of our death
Amen.
This being said, here are some suggestions without moving too much around.
I've also included the scansion of your meter in case you'd like to toy with that later.
Way 1
//_ Hail Idun,
/__/ Yggdrasil's Seed,
/__/_ Life-giving Lady,
/__/ Love-giving *Queen*.
/_/_ Blessed Idun,
/___/_ *Goddess ale-giving,*
/__/_ *Blossom of Healing,*
/_/_/ Quench our thirst for thee.
Way 2
//_ Hail Idun,
//__ Heart's Opener,
/__/_ Lady love-giving,
/__/_ *Goddess* life-giving.
/_/ Bless us with
/_/ Blissful drink,
/_/_ Ale age-helping,
/_/__ Mead mind-opening.
Way 3
//_ Hail Idun,
//__ Heart Gladdener,
/__/_ *Lady love-giving,*
_/_/__ *Beloved life-giver.*
/_/_ Blissful Idun,
/__ Bless us with *quenched*
/_/_ Thirst with thanks, *and*
/_/__/_ Soul awakened to seeking.
Re: "Hail Idun" Variants, and Any Questions of Which to Ask More?
Date: 2023-02-27 06:15 pm (UTC)1) Sprung rhythm sounds promising! I'll have to see if I can get it to play nice with the strict(ish) stressed-syllable count requirements of Galdralag I'm using here. If not, it will almost certainly be helpful in more flexible meters like Anglo-Saxon Long Lines.
2) The varied repetition is a good suggestion, and one that these versions made insufficient use of, it seems. In Galdralag, there's a tendency, but not a requirement, for the last two lines to be variations of each other, sometimes with as little as one word changed, and the idea of changing *only* a synonym might be productive.
3) Thank you for the Eastern "versions" - I had encountered brief mention of them, hadn't looked to them as directly for inspiration, though maybe I should.
4) Thank you *very much* for the scansion and the suggestions. To make sure I'm reading your scansion correctly, you're using "/" for a stressed syllable and "_" for an un/less-stressed syllable?
Before this, I hadn't really written any poetry since some terrible blank verse in high school, so it's been a lot of fun to learn more and suggestions about techniques to consider are most welcome.
Thanks again,
Jeff
Re: "Hail Idun" Variants, and Any Questions of Which to Ask More?
Date: 2023-02-27 09:20 pm (UTC)Another good source for inspiration might be Thomas Taylor's translation of the Orphic Hymns. The structure of the hymns is in many cases just a list of epithets, so plenty to get inspired by :D
As far as the scansion is concerned, yes, I used / for stressed and _ for unstressed. I made some assumptions about names and titles, so there may be some inaccuracies.
Blank verse and free verse are what most people start with because there are many who look down on traditional forms. However, those forms, just like ritual structure help to contain and direct emotion in a way that more elastic forms cannot.
Best of luck!
-mek
Re: "Hail Idun" Variants, and Any Questions of Which to Ask More?
Date: 2023-02-27 06:02 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2023-02-27 10:23 pm (UTC)Re: "Hail Idun" Variants, and Any Questions of Which to Ask More?
Date: 2023-02-27 08:57 pm (UTC)May you and yours be blessed.
I'm curious... why Idun? I can understand Idun's place in worship as a life giver, but it seems like Frigg would be a direct correlate to Mary. She is the wife to the All-Father, births the son of a God, loses that son tragically, and then publicly grieves him to the ends of the worlds. The rosary seems to illuminate Mary's pivotal role in a cycle of divine life, acknowledges her grace and holiness, and implores her to have mercy on behalf of the supplicant.
The rosary, though used for many purposes, directly requests prayer for a sinner. You may have different purposes in mind for a Heathen rosary, but perhaps it should consider our worthiness in the eyes of the Aesir. How would one sin against the edicts of Odin...? The few bits of heathen lore we have seem to be firmly focused on acts rather than prayers.
Perhaps, a Heathen rosary would call on Frigg to pray for those not called to battle, to have a courageous life and meaningful death; or, call on Idun to inspire us to be worthy through providing sustenance rather than taking life.
I'm wishing you well in this endeavor, and excited to see what you produce.
Re: "Hail Idun" Variants, and Any Questions of Which to Ask More?
Date: 2023-02-27 09:16 pm (UTC)Hail Frigg
Aesir queen
Allfather’s betrothed
Beloved-Balder born to thee
Divine Frigg
Mother of mothers
Inspire us to beauty and courage
That you may grieve our passing
Re: "Hail Idun" Variants, and Any Questions of Which to Ask More?
Date: 2023-02-28 01:37 am (UTC)Re: "Hail Idun" Variants, and Any Questions of Which to Ask More?
Date: 2023-02-27 10:40 pm (UTC)So, the very short answer to "why Idun?" is because she told me to :) The longer explanation is that some of my strongest spiritual experiences, including the one that smacked the materialism right out of me, involved Her. Through prayer and meditation, I got the impression I needed to put together a more formal prayer practice, then that it should include beads, then that it ought to draw on the Rosary more heavily for inspiration. Along the way, I've gotten intuitions that Idun's links to the World Tree (made explicit in Odin's Raven Galdr, which is of contested age/provenance, but also from one of Snorri's kenning's given for her, "Seed of Yggdrasil") is something I should lean into. As for "what links Idun and Woden?", again, I'm drawing heavily on my own experiences here, but I find the theory that Bragi is a hypostasis of Odin at least intriguing, and I find some of the similarities between the Idun myth and Odin winning the Mead of Poetry highly suggestive. I think there's something about linking all of this having to do with inspiration, initiation, and overcoming death.
All that being said, I think your analysis of why Frigg makes a good fit is spot on, and your rough draft for a "Hail Frigg" is wonderful. At some point in this project, I'm thinking about working out how to go about customizing things for the deities that work best for you, since my own take is highly idiosyncratic. Something more specific than "just do what works for you!" but also more open-ended than "just plug in the right names, but keep everything else the same".
Cheers,
Jeff
Re: "Hail Idun" Variants, and Any Questions of Which to Ask More?
Date: 2023-02-28 02:48 am (UTC)Annnnd, I appreciate the narrative and explanation, and I understand your poems better with this backstory. Perhaps what I'm feeling critical of is that your relationship is so embedded into the poems that they feel more like a praising or orphic hymn than the Hail Mary. (I actually like them more thinking of them this way - particularly the first and the third.)
I've been thinking through my reactions to your "Hail Idun"s in light of this new info, and reframing my thoughts with Idun in the place of Frigg.
Another shot at what I see as more in line with the Hail Mary, because I believe it better explains my view than I can if I continue pontificating.
Hail Idun,
Yggdrasil's Seed,
Wife of verse,
Mother of rejuvenation.
Blessed Idun,
The Gods renewer,
Bless me with bravery,
That I may meet you in Valhalla.
Thank you for the conversation; I'm full of thought and inspired.
Re: "Hail Idun" Variants, and Any Questions of Which to Ask More?
Date: 2023-02-28 04:31 am (UTC)