Magic Monday
Jun. 2nd, 2024 11:18 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
ecosophia
Midnight is just a few minutes away, and so it's time to launch a new Magic Monday. Ask me anything about occultism, and with certain exceptions, any question received by midnight Monday Eastern time will get an answer. Please note: Any question or comment received after then will not get an answer, and in fact will just be deleted. If you're in a hurry, or suspect you may be the 143,916th person to ask a question, please check out the very rough version 1.1 of The Magic Monday FAQ here. Also: I will not be putting through or answering any more questions about practicing magic around children. I've answered those in simple declarative sentences in the FAQ. If you read the FAQ and don't think your question has been answered, read it again. If that doesn't help, consider remedial reading classes; yes, it really is as simple and straightforward as the FAQ says. And further: I'm going to draw a line, a hard one, under questions involving the evocation of spirits. Down the road a bit I'll be doing a post on the blog about why that's far less important than it's been made to look, and how the way of occult initiation takes a radically different path; in the meantime, I'm tired of fielding repetitive questions from people (or, quite possibly, one person using many sock puppets) that rotate gyroscopically around that one habit.The image? I field a lot of questions about my books these days, so I've decided to do little capsule summaries of them here, one per week. The book above on the left was my twenty-ninth published book, and remains far and away the most successful of my books from the peak oil era. Its genesis, like most of my other peak oil books, began on the blog I ran in those days, The Archdruid Report, with a series of posts on the appropriate technology movement -- one of the most promising of the movements of the 1970s ecological scene, which attempted to craft advanced technologies that could work within the limits of sustainability. Though it was erased from collective memory by mass media and corporate interests, it produced quite a few useful technologies, and this book was my attempt to bring those back to the attention of those who might use them. Given the steady sales of this book, I still have hope. If you're interested, you can get a copy here.
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***This Magic Monday is now closed, and no further comments will be put through. See you next week!***
The Reenchantment of the World and Question on the Protestant Church Model in America
Date: 2024-06-03 04:00 am (UTC)I hope everyone's June is off to a splendid and sunny, but not overly sunny, start!
To Share: Nothing from me this week, but a recent essay by John Carter of Mars on the (ahem) re-enchantment of the world might be of interest to some folks here: the pitfalls of designer religions, what makes for resonant myths, and where on the fringes today we might see proto-myths being born. Rather long, but I found it quite worth it: https://barsoom.substack.com/p/the-reenchantment-of-the-world
To Ask: You've mentioned before that during the height of the neopagan movement/fad, lots of its participants envisioned success as basically becoming standard protestant churches, only with more Gods and different songs (a building, paid clergy, regular service, associated community activities, and so forth). If this was only aping the conventions of wider culture, as seems like a reasonable first hypothesis, then it seems like a bad idea destined for failure, and the contraction of the alternative spirituality scene of the last decade plus might be evidence in support of it.
On the other hand, a while back, I had a conversation with another ecosophian that suggested an alternative, and I've been turning it over in my head for some time now, with no clear answer, and I wonder if you have any thoughts or pointers to books/people who might be worthwhile: might the pull toward that kind of model be something about the spiritual ground (whether literal or figurative) here in America?
Obviously we have a long history of weirdos having their own spiritual insights and schisming off to pursue them, as you've documented so well in your Occult America series, but it seems like the next-most-common American thing is for the weirdos (or some early followers) to rally as many folks as they can to their new, better truth, find somewhere to teach it, and put up a sign to attract new converts. This might be a topic for a post rather than an MM comment, but if you or the commentariat have any brief thoughts, I'd welcome them.
As always, thanks very much to JMG and everyone else here for all that you do.
My blessings to all who welcome them,
Jeff
Re: The Reenchantment of the World and Question on the Protestant Church Model in America
Date: 2024-06-03 04:18 am (UTC)The second problem was more subtle. Successful fringe religions in the US may have some of the basic elements of the standard Protestant church model but most of them offer something the churches don't. Sometimes it's healing (the Christian Science model), sometimes it's contact with spirits via trance mediumship (the Spiritualism model), sometimes it's self-improvement (the New Thought model), sometimes it's something else, but they always have an appeal that's not limited to going to going to church once a week. The Neopagans who wanted white clapboard covensteads and paid clergy never seemed to get that. Most of them were uncomfortable with magic, divination, and casual sex, the three things that made Neopaganism popular in its early days, and didn't have much of anything else to offer.
Re: The Reenchantment of the World and Question on the Protestant Church Model in America
Date: 2024-06-03 04:38 am (UTC)Of course, you can also see the first problem at least partially as an outgrowth of the second - no demand because there's no differentiating value offered.
Re: The Reenchantment of the World and Question on the Protestant Church Model in America
Date: 2024-06-03 04:40 am (UTC)Re: The Reenchantment of the World and Question on the Protestant Church Model in America
Date: 2024-06-03 08:20 pm (UTC)Re: The Reenchantment of the World and Question on the Protestant Church Model in America
Date: 2024-06-03 10:21 pm (UTC)Re: The Reenchantment of the World and Question on the Protestant Church Model in America
Date: 2024-06-03 11:06 pm (UTC)Re: The Reenchantment of the World and Question on the Protestant Church Model in America
Date: 2024-06-03 04:53 am (UTC)I don't understand this part. I thought the ADF were one of the best examples of the "supplying would-be paid clergy" type, but they practice magic and divination rather specifically, and let's say casual sex hasn't been foreign to their conducts either. I know they originated decades ago, but everything more recent that seems to me to want the same hasn't seemed too different regarding the above. Could you say something about who are those you described?
Re: The Reenchantment of the World and Question on the Protestant Church Model in America
Date: 2024-06-03 01:13 pm (UTC)At one point Philip Carr-Gomm, then the head of OBOD, asked Druids and Druid organizations around the world to contribute things to an archive of Druid materials he was organizing. He got some amazing things -- music, poetry, ritual, philosophy, you name it. From ADF, he got their official Policies and Procedures Manual, hundreds of pages thick. (As far as I know British Druids are still chuckling about that.) That, I think, is most of what you need to know about why ADF failed.
As for the groups I had in mind, I'm thinking of the ones who supported Cherry Hill Seminary and who were busy trying to turn Neopaganism into liberal Christianity with a different gender for God. There were quite a few of them, though it's been a while since I've paid any attention to the Neopagan scene.
Re: The Reenchantment of the World and Question on the Protestant Church Model in America
Date: 2024-06-03 03:37 pm (UTC)If I may;
The Ancient Order of Druids in America has published two books over the past several years, the druids book of prayers ceremonies and songs I and II. From what i understand these books can be purchased from several venues. The contributers were given no special title, payment, and all material was given over voluntarily for both editions. Most recent edition can be found here. https://aoda.org/publications/the-druids-book-of-ceremonies-prayers-and-songs/
Re: The Reenchantment of the World and Question on the Protestant Church Model in America
Date: 2024-06-03 04:17 pm (UTC)Re: The Reenchantment of the World and Question on the Protestant Church Model in America
From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2024-06-03 07:19 pm (UTC) - ExpandRe: The Reenchantment of the World and Question on the Protestant Church Model in America
Date: 2024-06-03 05:52 am (UTC)And Wicca in particular does not scale up to congregational size. Covens even of the traditional 13 are rare; covens any larger are unwieldy. But 10 people with average income are not going to be able to support a full-time priest or priestess, let alone both. And, as JMG has observe, the people pushing for paid clergy did, indeed, intend to fill that role if it came into existence.
Others, such as Isaac Bonewits, had inflated ideas of the amount of training that should be expected for the priesthood that they wanted to create. I remember an outline published in the ADF magazine, that if followed in full would have been the equivalent of earning 2-3 PhDs. No one can do that while also supporting themselves for the mere possibility of ADF priesthood becoming a viable career.
Rita
Re: The Reenchantment of the World and Question on the Protestant Church Model in America
Date: 2024-06-03 02:06 pm (UTC)I used to live in a fourplex in Minneapolis we nicknamed, Pagan Place, since all four units were people into the neopagan scene. I lived across the hall from Doc and Faun Bonewitz - Doc is Isaac's brother.
I briefly met Isaac late in his life, in his brother's living room one evening - the bext way to describe it is that it felt like he was presiding over the room.
Before I starting hanging out on these blogs, if you mentioned Druid that was what came to mind.
Re: The Reenchantment of the World and Question on the Protestant Church Model in America
Date: 2024-06-03 08:05 pm (UTC)At the end of the day, after cutting through all the smoke and bluster, the actual religious information and practical instructions this group has to offer isn't anything I can't already find in some $20 Llewellyn paperback on Hellenic paganism. So why on Earth would I want or need to join this group? All that's unique about it is the leader's incendiary political rants (like a good Southern preacher), which I can read entirely for free online ;)
To be fair, I think this group and their several offshoots do offer some decent rhetorical pushback against the Marxist entryists who have taken over most organized Neopagan groups. And I find their eclectic approach to be both intelligent and respectful and a good counterpoint to pedantic reconstructionism. Too bad the guy in charge comes off as a complete blowhard with delusions of grandeur.
Re: The Reenchantment of the World and Question on the Protestant Church Model in America
Date: 2024-06-03 08:41 pm (UTC)Re: The Reenchantment of the World and Question on the Protestant Church Model in America
Date: 2024-06-03 10:20 pm (UTC)The really ironic thing is that Winifred's comment later about how godhi became religious leaders by being rich enough to spend on "extras" like religious rituals was also how much of the Republican Roman religion worked (and Greek, as JMG pointed out), and so "give me respect, my hat is very impressive!" is not even especially culturally/religiously accurate.
Re: The Reenchantment of the World and Question on the Protestant Church Model in America
Date: 2024-06-03 11:33 pm (UTC)But no, just some late 20s something dude of modest means calling himself "the Pontifex Maximus" in an Appalachian drawl and ranting online about "mRNA GMO mutants" ;)
Re: The Reenchantment of the World and Question on the Protestant Church Model in America
Date: 2024-06-04 12:43 am (UTC)Re: The Reenchantment of the World and Question on the Protestant Church Model in America
Date: 2024-06-03 08:57 pm (UTC)This reminds me of the old joke about the commune already having a poet.
This seems to be a problem in a lot of more fringe religious, or political movements. It's one of the reason many of them remain on the fringes.
Re: The Reenchantment of the World and Question on the Protestant Church Model in America
Date: 2024-06-03 07:27 pm (UTC)One element that may be less familiar is the Scandinavian and German customs of the Gothar chieftains and the Eigenkirchen—it’s sort of the reverse of paid clergy but supports the same level of prestige for them. Heathen temples and other worship areas were built, owned and maintained by wealthy community leaders, including the support of associated priests or temple wardens if any, though the head priest would be the chieftain himself, responsible for the sacrifices and other worship activities. Whoever could afford to do these things *was* the religious leader, and supported himself and his dependents from his own wealth (which of course came from many other people’s work!).
This kind of independence was very unpopular with the centralized Catholic Church of course, but I think it also explains much of the appeal of Protestantism, and partly explains why it took hold in some of the countries so strongly— the same countries that had traditions of these independent Gothar and the Eigenkirchen or independently owned churches in Germany, very similar to the older pagan models.
So what others have written in this thread is very accurate for neo-pagans, but for some of the more reconstructionist Heathens it’s more a matter of turning back the clock—striving to gain the resources for an independent establishment (material or non-material) to be placed at the service of one’s group, rather than trying to get the group to support the leader financially. This does not apply to all Heathens, by any means, but where it does, it’s a matter of pride in being the provider, rather than seeking to be provided for.
Just wanted to make the point, though, that some of the Protestant model draws on older pagan customs—Protestantism didn’t spring fully formed from the head of Jehovah, after all, any more than any other human custom or pattern of being! Thus, there is some reason to consider aspects of the Protestant model when trying to come up with a sustainable way to practice today, for some of us.
Winifred Hodge Rose
Re: The Reenchantment of the World and Question on the Protestant Church Model in America
Date: 2024-06-03 08:46 pm (UTC)I don't think there's anything wrong with communities that want some approximation of a church structure, with a physical location and all, providing one. That's why I specified the Neopagan scene -- I don't consider Heathenry to belong to that movement, any more than us Mesopagan (thank you, Isaac Bonewits) Druids do. It was specifically the Neopagan scene that was supplied with people who wanted to be paid clergy, without checking first to see if anyone wanted to do the paying.
Re: The Reenchantment of the World and Question on the Protestant Church Model in America
Date: 2024-06-03 10:17 pm (UTC)And your last point hits the nail of what was underlying my line of questioning right on the head: I'm trying to more carefully separate baby from bathwater when it comes to learning from religious models and approaches that have been successful, with a specific focus on what might be different for us Americans than our European forebears.
Thanks again!
Jeff
Re: The Reenchantment of the World and Question on the Protestant Church Model in America
Date: 2024-06-03 10:32 pm (UTC)Check out what African-American religious groups have been doing over the last two centuries. Every tiny little African-American church has its own storefront space, its own lively community, and its own system of training and ordaining clergy. The Spiritual churches, which took elements of hoodoo and Spiritualism and created something really quite interesting with them, is one I've read about in some detail. It's a great example of how small religious groups can function well in American society.
Re: The Reenchantment of the World and Question on the Protestant Church Model in America
Date: 2024-06-04 12:18 am (UTC)You don't happen to have any authors or titles to hand on any of these, do you?
Cheers,
Jeff
Re: The Reenchantment of the World and Question on the Protestant Church Model in America
Date: 2024-06-04 12:48 am (UTC)Re: The Reenchantment of the World and Question on the Protestant Church Model in America
From: