ecosophia: (Default)
[personal profile] ecosophia

Hermes TrismegistusThe birth number, name number, and time number are the foundations of practical Pythagorean numerology, and you will find them repeated under various labels and forms in nearly all books on numerology. If you know how to create and interpret them, you can do everything necessary to give competent numerological readings.

Some books on numerology, however, include other numbers that can be used by numerologists in their readings. I don’t use any of these, but some numerologists find one or another of them useful. Experiment with them and see whether they work for you.

All the minor numbers below are based on the name you normally use—in other words, the name from which your name number derives. They can be changed by changing your name, or simply by changing the spelling of your name.

The vowel number. This is found by adding up the values of the vowels in a name. For example,  in the name John Jacob Jingleheimer Smith—assuming for the moment that Mr. Smith likes to use his whole name—the vowels are o, a, o, i, e, e, i, e, and i; 6 + 1 + 6 + 9 + 5 + 5 + 9 + 5 + 9 = 55, 5 + 5 = 10, 1 + 0 = 1, so the vowel number of this name is 1. The vowel number shows you how you appear to yourself, irrespective of what other people think.  Thus Mr. Smith sees himself as a simple, straightforward man with equally simple and straightforward goals, even though others might disagree with this assessment!

The consonant number.  This is found by adding up the value of the consonants in a name. For example, in the name John Jacob Jingleheimer Smith, the consonants are j, h, n, j, c, b, j, n, g, l, h, m, r, s, m, t, and h; 1 + 8 + 5 + 1 + 3 + 2 + 1 + 5 + 7 + 3 + 8 + 4 + 9 + 1 + 4 + 2 + 8 = 72, 7 + 2 = 9, so the consonant number is 9. The consonant number shows you how you appear to other people, irrespective of how you think of yourself.  Thus other people think of Mr. Smith as colorful and flamboyant, even a bit of an actor—a fact which baffles him. (As it happens, he’s right and they’re wrong—his name number is 1, the same as his vowel number. Other people, perhaps taken aback by his complicated and overblown name, see him as far more flamboyant than he actually is.)

If you're wondering whether Y is a vowel or a consonant, by the way, there's a simple rule. If Y is next to at least one vowel, it's a consonant; if it's next to consonants only, it's a vowel. Thus it's a consonant in the names Yolanda and Roy and a vowel in the names Mary and Yvonne. 

The initial number. This is found by adding up the value of your initials, in the way that you would normally write them.  For example, if John Jacob Jingleheimer Smith usually writes his initials JJJS, his initial number is 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 4. The initial number shows you your modus operandi—that is, how you habitually approach the world, for good or ill. Thus Mr. Smith tends to habitually approach problems in a patient, methodical way, and fairly often feels overwhelmed by the burdens facing him.

The keynote number. This is found by taking the first vowel of the name, together with every letter that comes before it in the name, and adding them up.  For example, in John Jacob Jingleheimer Smith’s name, the first vowel is o and the only letter that comes before it is j. O equals 6 and J equals 1, and so Mr. Smith’s keynote number is 7.  The keynote number shows you your most common interests, and thus tells you what hobbies or avocations you will find most satisfying.  Thus Mr. Smith, when he can take time away from other pursuits, will enjoy some solitary activity that puts his mind to work.

The mentality number.  This is found by adding up the number of letters in the name you use for your name number—not the numerical value of the letters, but simply how many of them there are. For example, there are 26 letters in the name John Jacob Jingleheimer Smith, and 2 + 6 = 8, so 8 is his mentality number. The mentality number shows you your habitual thoughts, the lines upon which your mind naturally works. Thus Mr. Smith, in any situation, will find that he habitually thinks of ways in which he can turn it to practical advantage.

The frequency number. This is also based on the name number, but not everyone has one of these. A frequency number exists if, when you set out the digits of the letters, one number appears at least half again as often as any other number.  For example, if the name you normally use is is Osborne F. Fox, this works out in numbers as 6, 1, 2, 6, 9, 5, 5, 6, 6, 6, 6. Since 6 appears six times in the name and no other number appears more than 4 times—in fact, of course, no other number appears more than twice—6 is your frequency number. The frequency number represents an additional influence that comes into play from unexpected sources, for good or ill.  Thus Mr. Fox will very often find himself in comfortable circumstances by what seems like sheer chance, and will repeatedly end up in positions where he receives generosity and kindliness—as well as those where he will be expected to provide these.

*  *  *  *  *

So there you have it. Numerology is a simple form of divination, well suited to provide a quick overview of individual personality and of fortunate and unfortunate days and years—the main purposes for which people have consulted oracles since the beginning of history, and doubtless long beforehand as well.

There are quite a few books available on Pythagorean numerology, if you want to expand your knowledge of the system, and there are also helpful chapters in old volumes on divination and the psychic arts and sciences. Many of the books add further levels of complexity, which after all is necessary if you want to turn this relatively simple system into enough material for a book! I have found the following resources particularly useful; some are in print, others are readily available from online archives of out-of-copyright books.

Coffman, C.J., Manual of the Enumeration (Los Angeles: The Enumeration, 1927). Quirky but interesting.

Gibson, Walter B., and Litzka R. Gibson, The Complete Illustrated Book of the Psychic Sciences (Garden City, NY:  Doubleday, 1966).  A classic old-fashioned guide to divination, with a chapter on numerology that remains the best introduction I know of. 

Goodwin, Matthew Oliver, Numerology: The Complete Guide (2 vols.; Franklin Lakes, NJ:  New Page, 1981). The Encyclopedia Brittanica of numerology books. The tables in back are worth the price of both volumes.

Javane, Faith, and Dusty Bunker, Numerology and the Divine Triangle (Atglen, PA:  Schiffer, 1979). A classic volume, highly recommended by many readers.

Taylor, Ariel Yvon, Numerology Made Plain (Chicago: Laird & Lee, 1926). A good basic introduction.

Wilson, Ernest C., You and the Universe: A Book of Numbers (San Diego:  Harmonial, 1922). Another good introduction, though a little more occult-themed than others.

*  *  *  *  *

Aside from whatever entertainment value these five papers on numerology may have, they fill another role: they are among the instructional papers for the first five grades of the Fellowship of the Hermetic Rose.  This is what I’ve decided to call my relaunch and revision of John Gilbert’s Magickal Order of the Golden Dawn, which was John’s relaunch and revision of Juliet Ashley’s Holy Order of the Golden Dawn, which was her—well, you get the idea.

I considered keeping the Golden Dawn label, but the changes made by Ashley and Gilbert were extensive enough that I think a new moniker is necessary to avoid confusion. This end of the tradition dropped the whole hardware of pentagram and hexagram rituals in favor of the Sphere of Protection, completely restructured the symbolism of the Tree of Life, and followed Waite’s refocusing the whole kit and caboodle away from ceremonial magic toward meditation, and occult study, but with a big extra serving of divination that Waite would have found appalling—and that’s just for starters. It’s a different tradition, for all practical purposes, and I wouldn’t want to have people straying into it who think that it’s standard Golden Dawn.

FHR emblemI inherited much more material from John’s MOGD than I did from the Order of Spiritual Alchemy, and it’s going to take correspondingly longer to get it organized, revised, and posted. In the meantime, those of my readers who want to get a head start can study the material as it appears, and be ready to take the examination for the outer grades once the whole kit and caboodle’s available.  The examination for numerology will require you to calculate and interpret the birth number, name number, time number, and minor numbers for two names and then work out and interpret the relationship numbers from those same names. Now you know, and—well, practice makes perfect, right?

(The Hermetic Rose, btw, is a white rose, which symbolizes silence in the old alphabet of flowers, in a golden triangle, representing the principle of the triad.  The drawing above is a first rough sketch using free clip art.) 
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(no subject)

Date: 2022-02-10 05:49 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Back in the first post, I came out to 3, which didn’t fit me at all, but 8 did. What’s the cause of that?

—Princess Cutekitten

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Date: 2022-02-10 06:05 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] ivn66
"The old alphabet of flowers", eh? Where might one read of such a thing?

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From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2022-02-10 07:34 pm (UTC) - Expand

Blue roses

From: [personal profile] the_copper_dragon - Date: 2022-02-12 04:30 am (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 2022-02-10 06:49 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
ok my results are kind of weird.

My name number, vowel number and mental number are all 8.
My time number, initial number and key number are all 1

Birth number 11 (or 2)
consonant number 9

(no subject)

Date: 2022-02-10 07:07 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
If I have a "y" in my name, does it get counted as a vowel or a consonant?

(no subject)

Date: 2022-02-10 07:14 pm (UTC)
d_mekel: (Default)
From: [personal profile] d_mekel
Mine were all spot on. Had trouble comprehending how others see me(of course).

(no subject)

Date: 2022-02-10 08:20 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Do you calculate the name number of the Fellowship of the Hermetic Rose using the initial article, or not? I'm assuming not, since if I've calculated it right, the name number is 11 without it, and 8 with it.

I'm guessing you're going for an order of quiet types who are nevertheless capable of taking action when needed?

(no subject)

Date: 2022-02-10 08:29 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Is there a significance if all of my numbers (name, birth, and all of the minor ones) are either 11 or 22?

(no subject)

Date: 2022-02-10 08:45 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Is Y considered a vowel in this system of numerology? The vowel song I was taught as a child always ended with "...and sometimes Y!" so I'm a little unsure.

(no subject)

Date: 2022-02-10 09:55 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Changing the number of letters in an initial is easier than changing out the whole name. In my case, my three letter initials yields a 2, a full four letter initials yields an 11, while a two letter initial yields a 5. With the challenges ahead, I Will need to change the manner in which I sign and initial documents. I thank you for showing us a new way of interacting with the world.

The whole process of calculating these various numbers is rather alchemical in nature, dissolving down number sets into the individual characters, and coagulating them again into new wholes. Is there a such thing as alchemical numerology?

PS: redoing the initial numbers with a Spanish Pythagorean sequence, my two letter initial is still a 5, my three letter initials are still a 2, but my four letter initials yield a 3.

Descriptions

Date: 2022-02-10 10:43 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] australiandreamer
Results all over the shop
Birth 33
Name 11
Time 44
Outer 5
Inner 3
Vowel 6
Consonant 5
Initial 11
Keynote 6
Mentality 3
Frequency (two separate numbers with four each (5 and 9) and the rest are 1's so nada here)

Where I am coming unstuck is I am reading the example results in your post and looking at all of the descriptions for the meaning for that number (started with the name ones but they didn't seem to match) ... where do I see John's 1 as simple and straightforward and his 9 showing getting seen as flamboyant by others?

Re: Descriptions

Date: 2022-02-11 05:14 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Yes, I don't understand how to find the meanings either.

(no subject)

Date: 2022-02-10 11:42 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Hmmm... Fellowship of the Hermetic Rose huh? I like the sound of that. You've got me considering it...

(no subject)

Date: 2022-02-11 12:11 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
F O and X are all six, so does that mean FOX FOX FOX is 666?

(no subject)

Date: 2022-02-11 01:30 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Looking forward to it!!

(no subject)

Date: 2022-02-11 04:30 am (UTC)
jprussell: (Default)
From: [personal profile] jprussell
Clearly there's a certain "character" to each number whether it's a name number, birth number, relationship number, or what have you (by which I mean, there's some core character to "5", whatever context it's in, but you interpret it differently in those contexts). That being said, the interpretations given for the different kinds of numbers differ somewhat. Above, you give how to calculate the numbers, but not a different set of interpretations. Of the previous numbers, which one might be the best to use as the starting point for understanding these minor numbers? The name number description?

(no subject)

Date: 2022-02-11 04:43 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
I've got a consonant number of 1, which seems to fit - I feel like other people read me as having a very straightforward and coherent persona. It can be upsetting for them when they start to glimpse just how very far off the beaten path I reside.

-Cliff

(no subject)

Date: 2022-02-11 05:41 am (UTC)
open_space: (Default)
From: [personal profile] open_space
I hope you don't mind that I did a quick sketch after dinner. What do you think about this?

Edited Date: 2022-02-11 06:17 am (UTC)

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(no subject)

Date: 2022-02-11 07:01 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] deborah_bender
I like the name you have given this new society. It sounds egalitarian, unthreatening, but somewhat mysterious. Also some folks prefer their rose without the cross. You are a careful writer, so I reckon that was no accident.

There's a reason for dropping Golden Dawn besides the one you mention. At least one group that uses violence to attain political ends has taken that name. The associations are not quite as ruined as the swastika, but best to seek another option.

Lately I've realized (not before time) that if I want to get any forwarder with my magic I have to stop neglecting meditation. I'll stay tuned.

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(no subject)

Date: 2022-02-11 07:08 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Hello; I'm the person who commented earlier discovering that they might have changed what their most commonly used name is, or at least brought another one into use, without realizing it, here with another hopefully useful report. I've just run these numbers with four name arrangements and two sets of initials.

The initial numbers both came from my official first name and my last name, one with my middle initial and one without. Both produced a 5, though that seems like a mixed fit at best to me.

For the remaining numbers, I used the newer name on its own, the newer name plus my last name, the older name on its own, and the older name plus my last name. I'll call these here N, NL, O, and OL, respectively.

Vowel Number:
N and NL both produced vowel numbers of 6, which in the consideration I gave it here (though for this, and all of these, I'm a bit low on time at the moment) didn't seem like too bad a fit.
O produced a vowel number of 11, which seemed like it might or might not fit.
OL produced a vowel number of 2, which also seemed like it might fit, and I found the relationship with O's 11 interesting.

Consonant Number:
_All four_ produced consonant numbers of 1. I'm not sure how well that fits how others see me (though my impression is "not very well"), but it's interesting they all match, I think.

Keynote Number:
N produced a 5, which seemed a mixed fit at best, and O produced a 6, which I wasn't sure how to evaluate the application of.
(As I understand it, NL should be the same as N and OL the same as O, since both just add on to the end of the name, past the first vowel.)

Mentality Number:
N produced a 5 and NL a 1, both of which seemed mixed fits at best to me.
O produced a 4, which still seemed iffy but perhaps a better than even fit.
OL produced a 9, which did _not_ seem to me like a good fit.

Frequency Number:
Not only do all four names have one, all four come out to 5. I'm not sure how to interpret that, but I again find it interesting that all four came out the same.

(Of course, all of the above assume I didn't make a math error somewhere in that lot. Pretty sure I didn't, but of course, I might have missed missing something.)

(no subject)

Date: 2022-02-11 08:13 am (UTC)
vitranc: (Default)
From: [personal profile] vitranc
So let's recap:
I have been born to learn self-discipline and am naturally gifted to be conservative. A hard worker who will suffer hardships and needs to understand what he commits his efforts to. Do not deny change in this and take it one patient step at a time. (the image of an ox comes to mind) Oh and mind that stress levels! (birth = 4)
My way of dealing with this is to plan, understand, time. To balance patience, judgment, intuition, and decisiveness. To be aware and observant. The occult arts help me. (name = 11)
This combination, if pulled of correctly, makes me likable to others. And a power if I take care to cultivate loyalty, integrity, humility and stability over the long term. (combination = 6)
This is good, since I see myself as exactly this (vowel = 6), but others see me as an independent and loner who does not like to take advice, but is somehow naturally lucky. (consonant = 5) This is not true, since my luck is not random, but is fortune grounded in the relationships that support me.
(OMG this makes so much sense just now!)
This does however come about from the fact that I have an independent mind and an interest for uncovering the unfamiliar.Making me an eccentric that goes off alone on his own pursuits. (keynote = 5)
Fair warning I habitually consider any situation in how it will serve me. (mentality = 1) It would be nice to remember that any self-centred system will best serve the canter if it also in turn serves the periphery.

two points:
- my real name is obviously not V. :-)
- How does this all make so uch sense?

Best regards, V
Edited (Conflict with characters.) Date: 2022-02-11 10:03 am (UTC)

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(no subject)

Date: 2022-02-11 08:14 am (UTC)
sinners4diseasecontrol: Photo by husband atop Mt. Shirouma at dawn (Default)
From: [personal profile] sinners4diseasecontrol
I finally got down and crunched all the numbers. The name was the hardest part. "Pat Ormsby" is straightforward and gives me a 3, which seems apt. In Japan, though, I'm known as "Patto" in katakana. "Pat Ormsby" comes over as "rice ball falsies," and anyone trying to pronounce it wouid stumble, so I shortenened it on down to Patto and had it registered, so it turns up on all sorts of official documents with no mention of the longer version. This name, though, just does not sit well with the folks in Shinto, so there, I am "Patorishiya." So, for "Patto" I took the standard modern dictionary order of katakana and made a table. It came out to 6-1-3, so "one." For "Patorishiya," I went with the old "Iroha" alphabet. They didn't use to have any "P"s in the language, or they did (as some linguistic analyses have found), but did not distinguish them from "H"s. You see the older nationalistic "Nippon" versus newer, gentler "Nihon" dichotomy. Anyway, Hatorishiya worked out to "nine." So I seem to have these different personas in these different, almost hermetically sealed spheres of my life. And they do seem to fit.
I kept thinking my birth number was not apt for any recent time, but was apt before I came to Japan. It makes me wonder if my date of arrival here might be considered a new birth in a sense. I still have that old passport and could look it up.

(no subject)

Date: 2022-02-11 04:13 pm (UTC)
tunesmyth: (Default)
From: [personal profile] tunesmyth
Hi Pat,

Iroha order, interesting and makes sense. I was trying it out with the modern standard goju-onjun dictionary order, but of course the Iroha order probably has had more time to set tracks in space.

The question of what to do with kanji came up here before. My working guess is that there are two levels of name number numerology in Japanese: one using Pythagorean numbers (either with Iroha or Goju-Onjun), and another analyzing purely kanji, when that is more appropriate, in which the numbers are assigned simply by how many strokes the figure normally is written with. But as to what to make of the difference between the two versions of the names, I'm not prepared to deal with.

Interestingly my Japanese wife has been into numerology for as long as I've known her, but the source she studied back when she got into it only dealt with dates and birthdays-- so she does not have an answer, herself, for how to deal with name numerology in Japanese.

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Numbers Together

Date: 2022-02-11 08:25 am (UTC)
goatgodschild: (Default)
From: [personal profile] goatgodschild
All right, my consonant number is 11 (so, 2 most of the time), and my vowel number is 8. My name number, however, is 1. It seems like these combine well, in comparison to the example of Mr. Smith above, but I would like your opinion.

Quadrivium

Date: 2022-02-11 03:06 pm (UTC)
sothismedias: Picture of Justin in front of the Crosley Brothers mural in Camp Washington. (Default)
From: [personal profile] sothismedias
I've been following along these posts, but haven't commented until now in this sequence.

It struck me though that this study could also be incorporated into the Golden Section Fellowship work in that an occult quadrivium would look like this:

1) Pythagorean Numerology
2) Sacred Geometry
3) Harmonic Science (Esoteric / Speculative Music / Music of the Spheres / Psychoacoustics etc.)
4) Astrology

Looking forward to hearing about the Fellowship of the Hermetic Rose

Re: Quadrivium

From: [personal profile] sothismedias - Date: 2022-02-11 08:40 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 2022-02-11 03:12 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
For what it's worth, I'm finding the vowel and consonant numbers (or soul and personality number, as one author calls them) a very useful extension of the system. They also seem to explain relationships well for me, by adding up two people's vowel or consonant numbers: some people have emotional bonds, but don't work well together on the outside.

Various notes

Date: 2022-02-11 05:15 pm (UTC)
tunesmyth: (Default)
From: [personal profile] tunesmyth
I've been following these posts and trying out the material from the beginning, but I haven't had the time to reply in a timely fashion to one of these posts until now, and so forgive me, but I have a little bit of a backlog.

(1) [personal profile] sdi made this point over on his personal dreamwidth blog, but it bears repeating: 11s are not particularly rare; in fact, they are much more common than simple "natural" 2s. Sdi discovered this by looking at US census data; independently, I simply figured out that the set of combinations of date numbers that can possibly lead to a natural 2 birthday are extremely limited, in that it needs to add up to exactly 20, whereas every other combination that reduces to 2 can first reduce to 11, at least by the rules that JMG gave. For instance, in the year I was born, 1974, there were 38 birthdays that count as 11s, but *zero* that count as natural 2s. Since the turn of the millenium, natural 2s have become more common again, but I don't believe it's ever possible to have more 2s than 11s-- for instance, last year, 2021, had twenty birthdays that count as 11s, and fifteen birthdays that count as natural 2s. (There are "natural" 11s, that add exactly to 11 with no reducing, and those are indeed quite a bit rarer-- but that doesn't seem to matter, at least according to the guidelines JMG gave.)

(2) It's fun to speculate that somehow waves people born with a slightly unusual missions in life compared to the rest of the human race (aka born with double number birthday numbers)-- come in increasing waves over time. Natural 22s are indeed rarer than 4s, though in the recent past not exceedingly so; it really depends on year and decade. They're a bit more rare now since the turn of the millenium; for instance, the only 22s set to be born this year will be on 5/29, 6/28, 7/27, 8/26, and 9/25, whereas there will be around 30 garden variety 4s.

33s were a dime a dozen at the end of the 20th century, but now there are no more that will be born at all until 9/29/2029. 44s are the rarest of all; the first ever born was on 9/29/699, then none again for another century after that. Even by the end of the 20th century, when a year like 1999 all by itself added up to 28 even without adding in the month and date, 44s were always the rarest by far. Now that the millennium has turned, there will not be any more 44s born until 9/29/2499, and then none ever again for another 99 years after that.

That may be the limit for doubled numbers at our present state of spiritual evolution, at least as far as life missions go; there won't be any 55s born until 9/29/8999 (followed by the next nearly a millenium later on 9/29/9299), but I would frankly be shocked if our current calendar system was still intact by then!

(3) Re: relationship numbers, the topic from last week. The tools as given analyzed relationships between two parties only. It occured to me, as I sat down to work out all of the various two-person relationship numbers of the family members sharing my home, that theoretically one might be able to generate numbers for larger sets of people by way of simple addition. After all, sure everyone has had the experience of being in a small party where a certain vibe develops, only for someone else to arrive and the overall vibe suddenly changes. Or one person leaves dinner, and all the relationships shift in turn. Of course there are plenty of non-numerological reasons for this, but the numerology may work in tandem. I tried calculating for my own immediate family, making a "family outer number" and a "family inner number" by adding everyone together. I don't actually know if this is a valid approach, but if it is, the numbers that resulted would please me mightily.

(4) Also, JMG, for when you edit this material for publication in some form: I feel you should probably stress that 5s aren't necessarily a death knell for a romantic relationship. Someone shared that their parents had an outer relationship number of 5, and it was a terrible marriage. Well, my parents are also a 5. I do feel that 5 absolutely fits: it has often been rocky, with one or the other putting their opposite into a dark mood. At the same time, they've been together for just under fifty years; their inner number is 8, and they've clearly put in the effort that an inner 8 relationship calls for. It's clear that they love each other, and love their children and grandchildren. (Even if they sometimes argue with each other over the best way to express it!) Also, I'll just add that since my younger brother moved back into their home, it seems to have improved their living relationship quite a bit; I would tend to see this as further evidence toward group relationship numerology being a real thing.

(5) Also, I'll just put out there that I recently started experimenting with trying to apply numerology to celebrities and fictional characters... and it seems to work fairly well, in general. Good fun. Minor numbers seemed pretty spot on in general for James Bond, Jack Reacher, Jane Eyre, Doctor (as in Who), Bilbo and Frodo Baggins, and Han Solo.
Edited Date: 2022-02-11 05:25 pm (UTC)

Re: Various notes

From: [personal profile] sdi - Date: 2022-02-11 10:27 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: Various notes

From: [personal profile] tunesmyth - Date: 2022-02-12 04:54 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

Date: 2022-02-12 10:57 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Consider trying a Peace rose (pink and light yellow); it would go well with the gold triangle.

Many moons ago there was a miniature version of Peace, Baby Katie; does anybody have one and, if so, may I have a couple of cuttings?

Princess Cutekitten

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