JMG on Hermitix

[ecosophia]

I'm back on the Hermitix podcast with host James Ellis, talking about my newly reprinted book After Progress: Reason and Religion at the End of the Industrial Age. James' podcast has earned its reputation as one of the most interesting venues for new ideas on the internet; we had a great conversation as always. Interested? You can tune in on Anchor.fm here or on YouTube here. 

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Very very glad to see you back on Hermitix.

In retrospect it was ridiculous to be concerned about, but I must admit I was worried when James first announced his Catholicism that his podcast would lose some of the willingness to grapple with the stranger, fringe aspects of thought that I value from his show.

As someone who also returned to the faith after something of a prodigal journey, I've observed that occasionally you can find converts taking a rather extreme stance against their previous interests, maybe to distance themselves or define themselves in a hard light.

Thankfully, it seems James has kept a good head on his shoulders - which I honestly should have expected - and his recent podcasts have maintained that curiosity and courage that drew me to his work in the first place and that we need more of in modern discourse. In fact, his conversion has led to some great podcasts on "weird Catholicism" and mystical Catholics like Simone Weil, so it's been a blessing I'm grateful for.

Delighted to see that you back on, as your conversations with him are always a treat. I think you two have a very unique rapport and the collision of your two perspectives usually reveals something profound. Hopeful to hear more great convos between you two in the future.

[(Anonymous)]

It’s the one podcast where I always know I’ll leave slightly smarter when I finish and episode.

Binge worthy

[the_copper_dragon]

The only reason why I know about Hermitix is because of this blog. I had the sense that James was more on the Christian side, didnt know he was Catholic till today, but the thing I like about the podcast is that he's more than willing to delve into subjects and people/philosophers that are little talked about and actually attempts to bild bridges rather than go around and burn them. I'd agree with other commenters in the sentiment that the podcast is one of the rare ones that doesnt melt ones brain and actually leaves one smarter than before, thus why James is so Binge Worthy.

[(Anonymous)]

Hi JMG,

In the podcast, you mentioned 3 books by other authors of a realistic after-Progress/non-Progress future.
The second and third works you mentioned were:
2. "The Masters of Solitude" (by Marvin Kaye & Parke Godwin)
3. "The Winter of the World" (by Poul Anderson)

What was the first book you mentioned?
It sounded to me like "Davey Won" by Edgar Payne Morton, but I'm not finding anything that remotely sounds like that on worldcat.org or other search engines.

Thanks,
Eugene

[(Anonymous)]

Hello John, I've been listening to a spoken word version of "After Progress" from Michael Dowd on soundcloud recently, so listened to this podcast with interest. The notion of 2nd religiousity I find particularly interesting, I wonder how that will play out as our current age of reason dies its death.

I was reminded of a couple of episodes of a BBC documentary I've watched on youtube called "The Worst Jobs in History". One focussed on jobs during the Middle Ages; performing the daily grind (flour for bread), ploughing an acre (apparently "acre" derives from the area one person could plough in one day - rather impressive, as I'm sure I couldn't plough that much space daily), and making a house from wattle and daub. What really struck me is that all of these acitivities seemed far more enjoyable to me than sitting in an office performing the modern version of the daily office grind. Indeed I make my own bread, including grinding the seed to flour, every week, and do that because I enjoy the process and end up with much healthier, tastier bread than I'd buy in the supermarket. Equally it struck me that building a house from wattle and daub must be a very rewarding process, because to live in a structure made from your own work, compared to slaving away in front of a computer for decades on end to pay a mortgage (and enrich some evil bankers in the process), seems eminently more enjoyable to me. I have a plan to build a straw bale house at some point in the not too distant future, so we'll see how I feel about that after all the hard work!

I wonder if you could recommend some specific books about living in earlier times that don't share the modern perspective that life was terrible before the oil age?

[ecosophia]

The other book is Davy by Edgar Pangborn; it was originally published in 1964, and deserves much more attention than it's gotten. Pangborn also wrote two other novels, The Company of Glory and The Judgment of Eve, set in the same future -- they're not as good, to be frank -- and a collection of short stories also in that future, Still I Persist in Wondering, which includes some absolute gems.

[(Anonymous)]

Think about the maintenance that goes into a modern house as well. You can’t just go mix up some sticks and mud to fix it.

[ecosophia]

Ruth Goodman's books How To Be A Tudor and How To Be A Victorian are excellent places to begin; Goodman does living history and so can explain from personal experience the ups and downs of living a premodern lifestyle. I'm also going to suggest a writer from much further back, the remarkable William Stearns Davis, who wrote four fine books on the subject in the early 20th century: A Day in Old Athens, A Day in Old Rome, Life on a Medieval Barony, and Life in Elizabethan Days. (These are out of copyright and can be obtained readily from Archive.org.) All of these are excellent antidotes to the delusion, heavily pushed by the media, that life before 1960 or so was unmitigated misery for all.

[(Anonymous)]

Thank you.

[brenainn]

Rev. Michael Dowd? Years ago, when his book "Thank God for Evolution" came out, I started following a lot of his work. As I grew more disenchanted with the progressive vision of Christianity and the world, I stopped following his work. I saw, a couple years ago, that he had shifted his views somewhat, and was no longer a fervent believer in the cult of perpetual progress. Seeing that he's interacted some with JMG, and having read some of his more recent material, has renewed my interest in him. I can recall he was kind of popular in progressive Christian and UUA circles for a few years. I wonder how well received his de-conversion from perpetual progress has been in those circles? I've seen some signs that political/social progressives have begun to increasingly despair, as the world just won't become the equitable paradise they desire.

[brenainn]

Is it crazy that I've been considering getting rid of most of the electric devices in my home (including electric lightbulbs) and going as close to "Amish" in my little town as possible? I've cleared out a large space in my backyard for a heck of a garden this spring, too. I've been gradually downsizing in this manner for a little while now, and I'm tempted to take it as far as I possibly can.

[open_space]

What was the reference to the madman in the market? If it was one.

[ecosophia]

No, you're collapsing now and avoiding the rush. It strikes me as a very good idea.

[ecosophia]

It's a famous quote from Friedrich Nietzsche:

'Have you ever heard of the madman who on a bright morning lighted a lantern and ran to the market-place calling out unceasingly: "I seek God! I seek God!" — As there were many people standing about who did not believe in God, he caused a great deal of amusement. Why! is he lost? said one. Has he strayed away like a child? said another. Or does he keep himself hidden? Is he afraid of us? Has he taken a sea-voyage? Has he emigrated? — the people cried out laughingly, all in a hubbub. The insane man jumped into their midst and transfixed them with his glances. "Where is God gone?" he called out. "I mean to tell you! We have killed him,—you and I! We are all his murderers! But how have we done it? How were we able to drink up the sea? Who gave us the sponge to wipe away the whole horizon? What did we do when we loosened this earth from its sun? Whither does it now move? Whither do we move? Away from all suns? Do we not dash on unceasingly? Back-wards, sideways, forewards, in all directions? Is there still an above and below? Do we not stray, as through infinite nothingness? Does not empty space breathe upon us? Has it not become colder? Does not night come on continually, darker and darker? Shall we not have to light lanterns in the morning? Do we not hear the noise of the grave-diggers who are burying God? Do we not smell the divine putrefaction? — for even Gods putrefy! God is dead! God remains dead! And we have killed him! How shall we console ourselves, the most murderous of all murderers? The holiest and the mightiest that the world has hitherto possessed, has bled to death under our knife,—who will wipe the blood from us? With what water could we cleanse ourselves? What lustrums, what sacred games shall we have to devise? Is not the magnitude of this deed too great for us? Shall we not ourselves have to become Gods, merely to seem worthy of it? There never was a greater event, — and on account of it, all who are born after us belong to a higher history than any history hitherto!" — Here the madman was silent and looked again at his hearers; they also were silent and looked at him in surprise. At last he threw his lantern on the ground, so that it broke in pieces and was extinguished. "I come too early," he then said, "I am not yet at the right time. This prodigious event is still on its way, and is travelling, — it has not yet reached men's ears. Lightning and thunder need time, the light of the stars needs time, deeds need time, even after they are done, to be seen and heard. This deed is as yet further from them than the furthest star, — and yet they have done it!" — It is further stated that the madman made his way into different churches on the same day, and there intoned his Requiem æternam deo. When led out and called to account, he always gave the reply: "What are these churches now, if they are not the tombs and monuments of God?"'

[stcathalexandria]

Listening to this and James shared he is now a Catholic what? I’m hard of hearing and he mumbled the second word.

Excellent interview btw. Your concept of progress when I share it does cause short circuits in the listener! They will admit the iPhone in their hand isn’t that much different than the one they had ten years ago (same with their car, computer, microwave, airline flight, etc) and there hasn’t been a wow tech moment in decades, but to say we are at peak progress get the response “but we are going to Mars!!!”

[(Anonymous)]

I believe he said Catholic catechumen, someone preparing for baptism!

[stcathalexandria]

Ahhh makes sense. I joined the Roman Catholic church in my 20's and took a class and studied with priest in order to do so.

[(Anonymous)]

Funnily enough I am on a similar path. My goal for the next year or so is to get down to a energy use/living standard of mid 19th century Japan. But with a laptop and refridgeration. And once that becomes more of a drag than a benefit to ditch it as well.

[(Anonymous)]

If I recall, Dowd dropped the whole progressive future idea around 2010 (2 years after his book) once he read Overshoot by William Caton.

He is interviewed on this weeks episode of Ecoshock radio if you are interested.

[(Anonymous)]

"How were we able to drink up the sea? Who gave us the sponge to wipe away the whole horizon?" that's remarkable. must go read some Nietzsche! i'm reminded of the story of Diogenes taking his lit lantern to the market during the day, searching for an honest man.

Post-Christian Ethics

[(Anonymous)]

Another fascinating discussion! However, I'm curious about one aspect in particular. You talk about the difficulty of supporting some very common moral principles without explicitly or implicitly resorting to Christianity. Doesn't tamanous provide something of a replacement foundation, though, if one takes it seriously as a metaphysical principle? If we each have our own path to follow, then for me to try to control someone else's life goes against the grain, so to speak. "You do you" becomes the default (with all the familiar caveats about noses and swinging fists), and we're back to something resembling our notion of liberty

[(Anonymous)]

i'm not too far away from these ideals, either. you probably know about this already, but just in case; you can make a low tech "fridge" by using 2 unglazed pots nested together, damp sand between, because as the water evaporates, it cools the pots.

to our host, thanks for the book recommendations. life in the tudor age sounds really quite reasonable, though i'm glad i'm not a villein on a barony in the 13th century!