ecosophia | Open (More or Less) Post on Covid 65

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Open (More or Less) Post on Covid 65

As we proceed through the second year of these open posts, it's pretty clear that the official narrative is cracking as the toll of deaths and injuries from the Covid vaccines rises steadily and the vaccines themselves demonstrate their total uselesness at preventing Covid infection or transmission. It's still important to keep watch over the mis-, mal- and nonfeasance of our self-proclaimed health gruppenfuehrers, and the disastrous results of the Covid mania, but I think it's also time to begin thinking about what might be possible as the existing medical industry reels under the impact of its own self-inflicted injuries.

So it's time for another open post. The rules are the same as before:

1. If you plan on parroting the party line of the medical industry and its paid shills, please go away. This is a place for people to talk openly, honestly, and freely about their concerns that the party line in question is dangerously flawed and that actions being pushed by the medical industry et al. are causing injury and death. It is not a place for you to dismiss those concerns. Anyone who wants to hear the official story and the arguments in favor of it can find those on hundreds of thousands of websites.

2. If you plan on insisting that the current situation is the result of a deliberate plot by some villainous group of people or other, please go away. There are tens of thousands of websites currently rehashing various conspiracy theories about the Covid-19 outbreak and the vaccines. This is not one of them. What we're exploring is the likelihood that what's going on is the product of the same arrogance, incompetence, and corruption that the medical industry and its tame politicians have displayed so abundantly in recent decades. That possibility deserves a space of its own for discussion, and that's what we're doing here.

3. If you plan on using rent-a-troll derailing or disruption tactics, please go away. I'm quite familiar with the standard tactics used by troll farms to disrupt online forums, and am ready, willing, and able -- and in fact quite eager -- to ban people permanently for engaging in them here. Oh, and I also lurk on other Covid-19 vaccine skeptic blogs, so I'm likely to notice when the same posts are showing up on more than one venue.

4. If you don't believe in treating people with common courtesy, please go away. I have, and enforce, a strict courtesy policy on my blogs and online forums, and this is no exception. The sort of schoolyard bullying that takes place on so many other internet forums will get you deleted and banned here. Also, please don't drag in current quarrels about sex, race, religious, etc. No, I don't care if you disagree with that: my journal, my rules.

With that said, the floor is open for discussion.

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There's a difference between wrong and punishable (not to mention a huge difference between "showing a vax card" and persecuting others). Consider the War on Drugs, which continues to ruin many lives far more comprehensively than getting sacked for not getting vaxxed, or the Vietnam War, which ruined or ended many lives (including those of many Americans). It would have been nice if the architects of those policies could have been punished somehow through aggressive pursuit of any violations of laws then in force. However, I would never, ever have suggested that private citizen-pundits who merely wrote, spoke, or tweeted in support of those inhumanely misguided official acts should suffer punishment. The First Amendment has been honored in the breach before, and who knows, it may be one of the provisions on the chopping block in 2025 - but to punish Oster for tweeting support for employers' vax mandates, you'd have to throw out both the First Amendment and the provision banning ex post facto laws, a quaint item that is absolutely essential for a civilized or safe society.

If you can be hauled into court, maybe stripped of property or sentenced to some form of labor and forced to implicate others, because you expressed support for practices or beliefs that it was entirely legal to support at the moment you spoke, as tritumi seems to assume or hope will be the case in the near future, nobody will ever dare to express a sentiment in public again that dissents from the views of those whom they predict will be the overlords sitting in judgment. But can you really be sure you know who the dictator will be a few years from now? The regime could fall, the pendulum could swing back faster than you think - therefore you'd be afraid to speak publicly on pretty much any subject at all. The long-term cost of this would be far, far greater than the fleeting pleasure one might get from forcing one's perceived enemies to crawl on public television.

But I'm pretty sure this is what what the good guys did, are you sure we shouldn't do it again?

Like that song goes, anything you can do, I can...something or other...(who pays attention to such things)...

Heh.

Yeah some people are "It was wrong when they did it to us, so it would be wrong if we did it to them" people.

And some people are "They did it to us and said it was fine, so it *had darn well better* be fine when we do it to them too" people.

I can respect both positions since both show a sense of justice and are better than just knuckling under to "We deserve it and they don't."

I'm more the first type, at least right now.

-Ochre Shabby Sea Serpent

There are many levels of punishment. Punishment need not mean ‘burned at the stake’ or ‘guillotined’. Being held to account for your public actions is wholly acceptable. Those who stood tall and did not bend the knee certainly were held to account for an uncomfortably long period of time. They were shunned, ridiculed, ostracized, fired, humiliated, and many were physically threatened. But like Hester, they bore their scarlet letter, and, as the testimony in Canada is currently showing, they have nothing to be ashamed of. Now that the scarlet letter has become a hot potato, and the cause for wearing it has shifted, perpetrators are calling ‘truce!’. Bah. Shunning and ridicule and firing won’t kill anyone. They can take their turn with the letter and we’ll see how solid THEIR spine is. If they are smart they will take lessons from the truckers and doctors and nurses and teachers and cops and everyone else who said “No.”

Murmuration

agreed. i do think that the active perpetrators that are calling for a truce need to display some sort of contrition, and not the fake or easy kind. what that looks like in the real world, i can't say.

but much like pornography, we will know it when we see it.

Two thoughts. 1) Many, myself included (see below), are diving in to rage on this ladies article. We need to be careful to not lose our footing. This may be a trial balloon, or may be a rope-a-dope, a la J6. "See what evil sort of people are on the internet! Leaving such hateful comments! We need to know who everyone is who gets online. Let's pass a law." 2) I'm going to allow myself a moment of anger, and then regain my footing: Sometimes, for some people who have committed atrocities, a stake or guillotine IS the proper display of contrition.

Murmuration

I'd like to see tritumi say what he has in mind. First, he seems to think Oster would be punishable just for pro-mandate speech. Second, to say that "devot[ing] her life and personal resources to contrition" and ratting out others is what would justify "parole" implies an even worse "punishment" if she fails to adequately abase herself and denounce others a la the Cultural Revolution. It was an inflammatory suggestion, envisioning a future legal regime that has nothing whatsoever in common with the United States having our present Constitution, and he ought to step up and explicitly say just what he hopes to see happen and how many millions of people might be swept up in it.

I hate to go there, when the "nazis" come out the argument is over, but I'll remind you that under our constitution, we were more than happy to track down all of the nazis who committed atrocities and hold them to account. It's an activity that is STILL happening, even as the last of those from that era pass on. I'm certain we asked them who their accomplices were. Very few people look back on that activity as inflammatory. Even the little people, who 'bore less responsibility' were marched through the camps when it was all over. Very few thought that was a bad call either. Let's at least take a passing glance at the metaphorical camps of our era, before we talk of rejecting cultural revolutions.

Now, this analogy breaks down because the US, under the constitution, was more than happy to snap up the useful nazis with Paperclip. But, as a rough analogy, I think comparing our response to "crimes against humanity (historical)" and "crimes against humanity (current)", has something going for it. There's a reason "Nuremberg 2" is trending on Twitter, pretty much nonstop now, and nothing at all about cultural revolutions is trending.

Murmuration

Coercion to accept an unsafe new vaccine is bad, but not as bad as genocide, as you obviously agree. The Nazis could be prosecuted because they'd committed international crimes, and crimes against Germans under the laws of the land that prevailed before they seized power and tore up the laws that inhibited their ability to persecute whom they would. The people who were prosecuted and imprisoned, though, were those who had actually committed crimes or war crimes, not those who had merely been party supporters. Concentration camp guards, not anti-Semites. And not ordinary soldiers, because under the laws of war, just participating in an invasion is not a war crime. (Yes, we have people now in a concentration camp for defending themselves from an American invasion. I guess what that says is that the victors make the rules, and some clearly hope that that can be applied to peacetime conflicts too.)

Let's be cautious about what's obvious, and what I agree with. You say potAto, I say potOto. The vaccine sure feels like genocide to me. The numbers are starting to creep up to parity there, if you factor in VAERS under-reporting and look around globally. When all is said and done, and this period is history, the numbers might end up being higher than our historical comparison. And Pfizer, by dint of being an international corporation, sorta makes this de facto an international crime, no? Plenty of people were prosecuted back then. Not just generals and political apparatchiks. Media and medicine are two career fields that come right to mind as holding lots of prosecuted individuals. Also, plenty of ordinary soldiers as well. In fact, one of the PRIMARY lessons to come out of Nuremberg was "I did it cause orders" was not a valid excuse. I guess we'll see how it all plays out in the end. We don't really have a choice at this point, do we?

Murmuration

Genocide is when one group or faction tries to wipe out another group or faction. If you come up with something dangerous and distribute it to your own ingroup at least as much as anyone else's if not more, even if it winds up killing many of them - many more than are dying of vax side effects so far - it is not genocide. If you did it on purpose it would be mass murder, which is bad enough.

Yup. That definition checks out for me too. I’d say we are in a qualifying situation. I know many would not agree, and I obviously don’t have any receipts. But reading lots of history, and paying attention to power structures for a few decades, it’s clear to me we have two obvious factions: the absurdly wealthy and everyone else. I’ll let you guess which one I think is the one committing genocide.

If so, they're doing a bad job of it since their group gets vaccinated more. And so far that seems a very inefficient means of committing mass murder. But the absurdly wealthy certainly do not want to wipe out the non-wealthy. The lifestyle of the wealthy depends upon a lot of labor by the non-wealthy: those working on farms, in paper mills, tailor shops, mines, auto and aircraft factories, hospitality and service jobs ... I could fill a page. If the working classes vanished overnight, the rich would have to personally do all the work they wanted to have done. They'd hardly want that!

So, is there a word between 'mass murder' and 'genocide' indicating when one group only wants the other 'mostly gone', and not entirely gone?

Re: Emily Oster says 'Let's forgive and forget'

(Anonymous) - 2022-11-06 00:07 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Emily Oster says 'Let's forgive and forget'

(Anonymous) - 2022-11-06 00:30 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Emily Oster says 'Let's forgive and forget'

(Anonymous) - 2022-11-07 19:18 (UTC) - Expand

Rough numbers look like around 20 million dead for the historical Nazi comparison (concentration camps, soviets, etc). The chart in this substack caught my attention:

https://vigilantfox.substack.com/p/death-tsunami-they-found-a-way-to

If you assume the 6 million dead from covid this "Our World in Data" chart shows (which I don't, these numbers are absurdly rigged. But let's be generous), and track up to the lower bound of "excess dead" at something like 17 million, we reach 11 million non-covid excess dead. If we use the upper bound of something like 27 million, then we are at 21 million non-covid excess dead, surpassing the WW2 numbers already, and my sense is we are just getting started.

Murmuration

If the math is simple subtracting "covid" deaths from all deaths = "definitely vaccines", that is clean math for submission in court.

Everything is better with Q!

No, the math is clearly not that simple. But orders of magnitude are worth pondering. Are these numbers in the ballpark? Also, if 3 million kids die each and every year, do those qualify as excess? Or are they accounted for as standard yearly deaths? Being that the ~20 million current deaths in the covid era are excess, and could be anything from suicides of despair to malnutrition to covid to vaccines, but surely are policy adjacent deaths, my inclination isn’t to be a stickler and say “these are vaccine related and these are not” but to be way more inclusive and holistic and say “did these idiots cause conditions leading to 20 million excess deaths for any reason?” If the answer is yes, that’s good enough for my case brought before Q.

Murmuration

"did these idiots cause conditions leading to 20 million excess deaths for any reason?”

Oof. That's what I was worried about.

May I ask what "we have people now in a concentration camp for defending themselves from an American invasion" is a reference to?

I cannot fathom this out, unless by "American invasion" you mean "Big Pharma invasion", perhaps?

I meant Muslim people who were sent to torture camps, including Gitmo, for, allegedly, shooting BACK when U.S. forces invaded their countries.

Ah, thank you. Yes that makes sense, and I suppose there still are people detained in Guantanamo Bay, and/or being "extraordinarily rendered" for that, or similar, reasons.

I just grazed a series of tweets at an account called (believe it or not) Marina Oswald (not the real Marina Oswald) and there is an entire line of articles (typed and photocopied it seems) about Richard Nixon's relationships with European Nazis who set up shop here.

I'm thinking the ones who got caught were the ones without official 'sponsors.'

Yeah, NASA wasn’t the only place that got their share. The three letter agencies were just stuffed to the gills with them, as well as psychiatry and medicine.

Good point! You've reminded me of the time Brendan Eich was forced out of his job after it was publicized that he had, something like 10 years before, made a donation to a political cause that had won.

-Ochre Shabby Sea Serpent

hear hear.

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