Open (More or Less) Post on Covid 65

[ecosophia]

As we proceed through the second year of these open posts, it's pretty clear that the official narrative is cracking as the toll of deaths and injuries from the Covid vaccines rises steadily and the vaccines themselves demonstrate their total uselesness at preventing Covid infection or transmission. It's still important to keep watch over the mis-, mal- and nonfeasance of our self-proclaimed health gruppenfuehrers, and the disastrous results of the Covid mania, but I think it's also time to begin thinking about what might be possible as the existing medical industry reels under the impact of its own self-inflicted injuries. 

So it's time for another open post. The rules are the same as before: 

1. If you plan on parroting the party line of the medical industry and its paid shills, please go away. This is a place for people to talk openly, honestly, and freely about their concerns that the party line in question is dangerously flawed and that actions being pushed by the medical industry et al. are causing injury and death. It is not a place for you to dismiss those concerns. Anyone who wants to hear the official story and the arguments in favor of it can find those on hundreds of thousands of websites.

2. If you plan on insisting that the current situation is the result of a deliberate plot by some villainous group of people or other, please go away. There are tens of thousands of websites currently rehashing various conspiracy theories about the Covid-19 outbreak and the vaccines. This is not one of them. What we're exploring is the likelihood that what's going on is the product of the same arrogance, incompetence, and corruption that the medical industry and its tame politicians have displayed so abundantly in recent decades. That possibility deserves a space of its own for discussion, and that's what we're doing here. 
 
3. If you plan on using rent-a-troll derailing or disruption tactics, please go away. I'm quite familiar with the standard tactics used by troll farms to disrupt online forums, and am ready, willing, and able -- and in fact quite eager -- to ban people permanently for engaging in them here. Oh, and I also lurk on other Covid-19 vaccine skeptic blogs, so I'm likely to notice when the same posts are showing up on more than one venue. 

4. If you don't believe in treating people with common courtesy, please go away. I have, and enforce, a strict courtesy policy on my blogs and online forums, and this is no exception. The sort of schoolyard bullying that takes place on so many other internet forums will get you deleted and banned here. Also, please don't drag in current quarrels about sex, race, religious, etc. No, I don't care if you disagree with that: my journal, my rules. 

With that said, the floor is open for discussion.    

Comments

Re: Emily Oster says 'Let's forgive and forget'

[(Anonymous)]

Someone on the last thread referred to Emily Oster as "some random Atlantic writer."

But she's not "some random Atlantic writer," she's *the famous author of /Expecting Better/* (a currently extremely popular guide to pregnancy).

Her *whole thing* has always been that, for any given decision, everyone should look at the data and make up their own minds instead of just listening to proclamations from "experts." That is the entire premise of /Expecting Better/. She got severely attacked for it, too.

(Her problem when it comes to the covid shot is, I think, that she's been believing fraudulent studies. Remember the study of pregnant women that was forced to issue a correction of their data but then never altered their conclusion? How about the Gardasil studies that included the adjuvant in the placebo arm and failed to disclose this in the study, so you had to do a deep dive to find out? Oster has done research surveys where she looked at the conclusions of many studies; I suspect she has not had the time for deep dives.)

Leading lights in the covid-shot-skeptic community would do well to keep this background in mind lest they ruin their credit with young moms--who are, after all, often those choosing whether or not to give the shot to 6-month-olds. Sometimes in the face of a doctor's threat to fire their baby as a patient if they don't.

-Ochre Shabby Sea Serpent

Re: Emily Oster says 'Let's forgive and forget'

[hearthspirit]

Ah.

I thought you got it. Fascinating choice , isn't she?

I'm sure everyone on the new twitter already knew that, of course, because they always have the full context before they pile on! Especially when it comes to children, because protecting the children is definitely what they care about, and it'd be a shame if anyone got a different impression this time.

Re: Emily Oster says 'Let's forgive and forget'

[(Anonymous)]

I do not question nor criticize what you say here, but I have to say, the idea of some toe-the-line normie doctor who can't be bothered to ask a few basic questions "firing" a baby is... sort of extra extra weirdly hilarious. Très 2022.

Re: Emily Oster says 'Let's forgive and forget'

[(Anonymous)]

Like here's the policy of a local pediatrics practice: "We believe that it is vitally important for all of our children to be fully vaccinated. This may be the single most important thing that can be done to protect your children from many serious illnesses, as well as to protect the children in the community who are too young to be vaccinated. If you decline to fully vaccinate your child according to the schedule recommended by the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) at the CDC, we will ask you to find a different provider who shares your views."

Friend, this is an actual problem that actual people actually have: Finding a pediatrician who will see your baby even if you decline one of the CDC's "recommended" vaccines.

I do wonder if the covid vaccine will force these pediatricians to change their stance...

In the meantime, my baby's pediatrician just quit, and every pediatrician recommended to me by friends is either retiring, not taking new patients, or for family practitioners who see all ages, not taking new child patients (I wonder if they're getting lots of interest from people leaving the vaccine-mad pediatricians). It's stressing me out. It's *an actual problem*.

Whatever, wish me luck I guess.

-Ochre Shabby Sea Serpent

Re: Emily Oster says 'Let's forgive and forget'

[scotlyn]

Much luck, and may your baby bloom with so much health that no doctor need be called! xx

Sending you positive energy!

Re: Emily Oster says 'Let's forgive and forget'

[milkyway1]

This is an occult blog, so…

… there have been repeated mentions in Magic Mondays about honey jar spells. I suppose this would also work for finding a decent paediatrician, no? (Or a competent physician with integrity in other medical fields, for that matter)

Since this will be an issue for a lot people, I‘m wondering if somebody who has experience with honey jars, and how to execute them in a safe and sane way, would care to explain the practice here, and what to watch out for?

Milkyway

PS, jmg: About some of my comments submitting several times: the dreamwidth support came finally, after 15 weeks (harumph!), back to me to discuss the issue. Their conclusion is:

„We believe this issue is likely related to some database work that the site admins have been performing over the past few weeks. It should be fixed now, but let us know if you start regularly seeing it again.“

I will most definitely let them know as soon as it happens again, and not just once it shows up regularly! ;-)

Anyway, if it should notice it again, could you let me know? I deleted a double post last week, but I don’t always see them, especially if they show up hours later. Thanks!

Re: Emily Oster says 'Let's forgive and forget'

[(Anonymous)]

Very interested to hear more, if there is more. I'm having a similar issue with pediatricians. It's hard to find a good one, and hard to not be harassed by the state if you decline to have one.

Murmuration

p.s. I'm still looking for something 'official' on that little weed/ash ceremony we did. Haven't forgotten.

Re: Emily Oster says 'Let's forgive and forget'

[milkyway1]

Thanks for that, much appreciated! :-)

Worst case, the honey jar would make for a nice Magic Monday question… ;-)

Milkyway

Re: Emily Oster says 'Let's forgive and forget'

[(Anonymous)]

> It's hard to find a good one, and hard to not be harassed by the state if you decline to have one.

Oh gosh that really is a surveillance state. Is that kind of harrassment widespread in the USA, or just in your state?

Re: Emily Oster says 'Let's forgive and forget'

[(Anonymous)]

Well if parents are forced to do without a pediatrician there's a good probability the health of the child will improve.

The earlier they can get off the treadmill of 72 childhood shots the better off they'll be. Reduced chance of autoimmune diseases, allergies, autism and general dysfunction.

Re: Emily Oster says 'Let's forgive and forget'

[(Anonymous)]

We moved for a new job more than a year ago. Sort of forgot to get a new pediatrician. Oh, well.

Re: Emily Oster says 'Let's forgive and forget'

[(Anonymous)]

"We believe that it is vitally important for all of our children to be fully vaccinated...."

I remember reading somewhere that doctors get some sort of incentive payments based on what percent of their patients are "fully vaccinated" by age two, so having non-fully vaccinated patients cuts into their kickbacks.

Although I can't remember where I saw it, so I can't confirm.

Re: Emily Oster says 'Let's forgive and forget'

[(Anonymous)]

If true, this provides a good opportunity for some awkward questions when trying to find a new doc.

(It would also make for a hell of a website, listing who's on the take and who's not.) Couldn't be phrased that baldly, but I know I'd sure like to know any doc of mine is not operating under any other incentives.

Re: Emily Oster says 'Let's forgive and forget'

[(Anonymous)]

If/when I ever pick up another pediatrician, I will *definitely* be asking about this. First unclear answer and I'm out. Kickbacks mean the doc's working for drug companies, not me.

Re: Emily Oster says 'Let's forgive and forget'

[(Anonymous)]

Thoughts to Ochre Shabby Sea Serpent

I hear you, you're right, it's good to be able to write about it and get heads together with other parents and other people who are concerned. We all have to think about how to look after our children well in these strange times, and it might look rather different going forward.

1) Have you come across 'Where there is no . . .' series ie 'Where there is no doctor' etc. I think it's worth having a copy and studying it just for general knowledge about what people do if there isn't a doctor, these are pretty mainstream but it's a starting point just to think about health care. In addition I think it's a generally good thing to have a home nursing manual and get used to looking after your people at home in whatever way works for you and them. Rest, plenty fluids, fresh foods for vitamin C, chicken broth and so on are uncontroversial and get a person through many minor irritations without having to access the pharmaceutical mainstream.

2) Don't know how young your child is but if breastfeeding, there's an international qualification called IBCLC (International board certified lactation consultant) and if it's feeding difficulties, you want one of those rather than a general medic anyway who is likely to know little about supporting lactation. These are independent practitioners, usually a lady who is or has been a nurse specialist, the IBCLC exams are stringent and the qualification has to be renewed every five years.

3) Do you know any other parents locally or other people locally who share your views? Those people can not only support you but might know other people who can help too. There probably are more people out there than seems obvious. If you listen carefully and build positive connections with local folks you might pick up other ways to go forward -- sometimes someone's aunt is a nurse and so if you're in with them you can ask that lady if you're not sure whether something needs stitches or whatever. Just like with other skills and thinking ahead, a community can be a great resource for keeping a child in good health. It doesn't solve every problem but people do come up with workarounds and if you're connected you can get to hear about these.

Sending love across the Shabby tribe

Amaranth Shabby Lobster

Re: Emily Oster says 'Let's forgive and forget'

[(Anonymous)]

She's a famous author who believes pharmaceutical corporation propaganda
with no time for a 'deep dive?
Why not? Are you saying
she has put hundreds of thousands of children into a danger zone?
Because their parents (Atlantic readers?) also can't be bothered to figure anything.out?

Covid Karen Emily Oster really does need a reality check.
Where is her apology?
https://twitter.com/MHMcEachern/status/1587194504251117568

Re: Emily Oster says 'Let's forgive and forget'

[(Anonymous)]

to Ochre Shabby Sea Serpent

In my emotional reaction to Emily Oster (and to what I consider being an unrepentant accessory to a crime) I used the word 'you' and do not mean 'you' personally
I apologize for my carelessness.

Re: Emily Oster says 'Let's forgive and forget'

[(Anonymous)]

Ehhhh...

I appreciated Emily Oster's book 'Expecting Better' and how it eased some of the guilt and burden our society heaps on pregnant women. (Not everything is your fault! Eat that soft cheese if you want it, statistically speaking you and baby will be fiiinnneeeee!!! Etc. etc.)

BUT. She's part of the cadre of popular science writers who all drank the Koolaid and starting pushing the rest of us off cliffs because we were dirty. It pains me deeply, because they used to be my people. But all these quirky, entertaining folks who used to prize looking at the data and thinking for themselves have been subsumed by the PMC, or editors pressuring them to not write about stuff the publisher won't like, or the desire to be inclusive and so fell into the wokeness and Team Blue and REPENT FOR THE END IS COVID!!!!!

It's probably not unrelated that the pandemic was the first time many of them got as much attention as, say, your average sports writer. It was the Golden Era for biomedical writers. Sorry to say most of them dropped the ball.

Most of the criticism of her "forgive and forget" article on Twitter seems to be well written and true.

Perhaps if more of this type of free speech is allowed to bloom in the public square, more science writers and others will break loose from the spell and start thinking for themselves again.

--Ms. Krieger

Re: Emily Oster says 'Let's forgive and forget'

[scotlyn]

I'd be curious to know on what basis you see the "covid-shot-skeptic community" as being entirely distinct from "young moms"?

Re: Emily Oster says 'Let's forgive and forget'

[(Anonymous)]

I'm a young mom, so.

ISTM "leading lights" are a group who can be discussed separately from the general community they're trying to influence, whether or not some or all of them are also part of that community.

I'm unaware if any of the leading lights whose responses were linked here and on the last thread are young moms (TBH nor do I care). I know Heather Heying is an old mom ;) and I like her article: https://naturalselections.substack.com/p/psamamabears

In my search for a pediatrician who will accept my baby despite my failure to follow the CDC's "recommendations" (mentioned upthread) I've been taking strength from it. (I'm personally not all that agreeable, but I do have the IN_P "spinelessness" so w/e. (Well, to be thorough, we flip between "spineless" and "overreacting to minor pressure"...but anyway.))

-Ochre Shabby Sea Serpent

Re: Emily Oster says 'Let's forgive and forget'

[hearthspirit]

The Heather Heying article... unpopular opinion (no, I don't have any other kind ;-)) - but it made me cringe. She said a lot of very true and good things.

But...The thing about the "mama bear" narrative - which, while helpful for the people who admit they need a buck up sometimes, I get that! - is that this:

"Mothers have a special bond with, and a particular ferocity around protecting, their children."

Is only partly true. Some mothers are particularly ferocious about protecting their children. Others - my own great-grandmother, for example - are utterly unfit parents. Many of the people on this forum have stated that the reason they could see through the gaslighting is that they had a narcissistic parent. And, while they were carefully politically correct, based on what I've seen with friends, roommates, family that married in... I'd bet that a sound majority of those "parents" were mothers. One uncle-in-law once described his mother (who did not raise him, her sister did) as "the most selfish woman I ever met", and until I met one roommate's mother, I would have agreed. Maybe it's not a mother thing, and selfish dads just leave, but the anecdata were overwhelming. And I always feel bad when that narrative about saintly mothers comes up and I know that that must sting a lot of people who know it's more complex than that.

And this is also very true:

"Mothers, like everyone, can be conned into thinking that the very wrong thing that they are doing is the very right thing."

Mothers also happen to be women, who are people, and they as are equally prone to use their privilege for moralizing social crusades as anyone else.

The white feather campaign comes to mind, and this article reads just like the same sort of propaganda that would have been used to recruit soldiers.

On balance, I'm very glad that she ended with this:

"Be ferocious in protection of your children, and then, ferocious in protection of all children."

Because that is the one that usually bites first - when it becomes "mama bears" all believing they're doing the right thing by protecting their children, and attacking other people's children to do so, especially given how often people don't even have the full context before they go into attack mode. Hilarious example: a friend of mine was fuming because a boy at school had punched her daughter, and she wanted the school to Do Something about that clearly horrible, threat to society. They're 6. And the daughter, shiner and all, was getting really upset, didn't want her mother to call the school - "She's already trying to protect abusers! We have to do something!" - no. It turned out they'd been fighting about who go to go first down the slide, and shoving turned to hair pulling turned to... she sacked him. So he socked her. I laughed so hard at my friend's face I nearly fell off the bench; the girl knew she'd started it.

Sometimes mama bears also need to know when to wait and see, and when to call it a fair draw.

Re: Emily Oster says 'Let's forgive and forget'

[(Anonymous)]

"Many of the people on this forum have stated that the reason they could see through the gaslighting is that they had a narcissistic parent. ... I'd bet that a sound majority of those "parents" were mothers....Maybe it's not a mother thing, and selfish dads just leave, but the anecdata were overwhelming. And I always feel bad when that narrative about saintly mothers comes up and I know that that must sting a lot of people who know it's more complex than that."

For what it's worth, I'm one of those people whose narcissistic parent was in fact my mother, and I have some thoughts on that, based on personal experience, experiences of people I know, and on-line blogs and forums by and for children of narcissistic parents.

I think fathers are probably no less likely to have narcissistic personalty disorder (aka NPD, which is a real condition and should not be confused with just "having a big ego" or garden-variety self-absorption), but that children of narcissistic mothers and fathers tend to have somewhat different experiences. One, you're probably not wrong - a lot of bad fathers of any stripe likely are more prone to just leave, as you said. I also suspect that high-status NPD fathers may devote more time and energy to careers, and spend less time directing their poison at their children.

But another thing that makes the experience different - and this is based on a lifetime of anecdata from my own and others' experience - is that society gaslights children of bad fathers far less than children of bad mothers.

I've seen with my own eyes how when someone says "my dad is a jerk, he's very selfish and uncaring and not nice and manipulates", people are far more likely to respond with some variation of "oh, I'm sorry, that must have been hard! Men can be such jerks, even when they have kids! At least your mom was there for you!" But when someone says "my mother's a witch, she is very selfish and uncaring and not nice and manipulates", the response more often than not is to ATTACK THE VICTIM with some variation of "You shouldn't say that about your own mother! Your mother loved you, even if she wasn't perfect! Mothers do their best! You need to work to repair the relationship - she's the only mother you'll ever have!" and of course, some variety of "you're spoiled and selfish and blaming your poor mother for your own problems - perhaps you should see a psychiatrist."

The same story, over and over. With the end result that the children of females with NPD get double and triple gaslighted, first by the narcissist - who is likely to have more childcare responsibilities in the first place - then by the larger society, and even close friends, who, for whatever reason, are deeply invested in believing that all female parents love their children and that being a selfish, uncaring jerk towards children is the exclusive province of male parents. And that children who say otherwise about their mother (but not their father) are ungrateful brats.

Re: Emily Oster says 'Let's forgive and forget'

[ecosophia]

With regard to the gaslighting of people who had toxic mothers, yeah, that's a thing. Mine had a different collection of personality disorders, but I haven't seen her or spoken to her in thirty years, and excluding her from my life was one of the best things I've ever done for my mental health -- but by and large, I've tended to be very careful to whom I mention that, because the reaction you've described is very common.

Re: Emily Oster says 'Let's forgive and forget'

[(Anonymous)]

Eh, I'm one of those with a narc dad. (Maybe that's why he's still such a covidian. Narcs sure have trouble admitting they were ever wrong, anyway.) I've found issendai's website useful (http://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html).

I've never joined any support group or anything. My experience has been that harmful narc parents are assumed to be mothers; it's called "JustNoMIL," not "JustNoFIL"; most support groups and books are for those who had narc moms, not narc dads; etc. There's been a support-group gap similar to the support-group gap between abused wives and abused husbands.

I'm willing to believe it may be for the same reasons. It may be that there are more toxic (as opposed to absent) moms than dads out there, and/or that those with toxic moms have more of a need for support groups.

W/e the result for me is that I've never before discussed this problem with anyone but my husband. I'm even kind of afraid to post this bc again, my experience really has been that people agree that narc moms exist but narc dads aren't even like on the radar. What do you mean a narc dad? Bad dads disappear, they don't stick around and compete with your mom over your love and ask you if while making out you could feel your boyfriend's "thing" (yeah that's the way he put it, "his thing") and so on. Narc dad? Does not compute. IMX. (That's also why I didn't chime in on the narc parent discussion earlier. I did see it, but...)

Anyway. Heather Heying is an evolutionary biologist, so she's talking about human mothers in the same way another evolutionary biologist might talk about the mothers of another species: She means the typical ones. (Not the dysfunctional exceptions.) Just like someone talking about dog reproduction usually describes the typical dog moms--not the ones that eat their puppies.

(Buuut for more on poor behavior from mothers from an evolutionary perspective, I thought Sarah Blaffer Hrdy's /Mother Nature/ was pretty interesting. One chapter title: "How to Be an 'Infant Worth Rearing.'" ;))

-Ochre Shabby Sea Serpent

Re: Emily Oster says 'Let's forgive and forget'

[scotlyn]

Thank you for that reply. Yes, I see now that you are talking about "leading lights" and a category of activity called "influencing".

Personally I seek to be lead, and influenced, by the light that is inside me.

Many blessings in all of your goings and doings.

May you find the best of guiding lights!