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The Universal Gnostic Church: Apostolic Succession
This post is purely for geeks, and geeks of an unusual type at that. Every church that claims apostolic succession -- that is to say, a direct lineage from one of the apostles of Jesus of Nazareth -- traditionally has the responsibility to list that lineage somewhere for public examination. While the Universal Gnostic Church is not strictly Christian -- it affirms the right of its clergy and members to seek gnosis of the Divine in whatever form, and through whatever channels, they find appropriate -- its historic roots are in the independent Christian sacramental movement, and those deserve to be acknowledged and honored. Furthermore, like most independent sacramental churches, the UGC recognizes that apostolic succession is not a mere formality. It is a transmission of spiritual power that has definite, recognizable effects on both the recipient and those who receive sacraments and blessings at the reciplent's hands. Like most Gnostic churches, the UGC does not agree with the theological opinions expressed about Jesus of Nazareth by the religious mainstream, but recognizes the presence of spiritual power and blessing in the lineage that stems from him.
The details of the lineage? Those are below the cut.
(The image, btw, is one of many mystically inspired paintings by Carl Jung, one of the most influential Gnostics of the twentieth century.)
Apostolic Succession of the Universal Gnostic Church
Apostolic succession is the standard term for the lineage of any church with Christian ancestry going back to one of the apostles of Jesus of Nazareth. The succession can only be passed on in person by a rite including the laying on of hands and certain other formal requirements. Like most of today’s Gnostic churches, the Universal Gnostic Church can trace apostolic succession from the Master Jesus by way of several distinct lineages.
The Universal Gnostic Church originally received its apostolic succession via the consecration of founding bishops Omar Zasluchy and Rhodonn Starrus (Matthew Shaw) by Bishop Robert Monroe of the Liberal Catholic Church in Allentown, Pennsylvania in 1952. Owen Symanski, the third founding bishop, received consecration in the Order of Corporate Reunion and Liberal Catholic Church lineages, and passed those on to other bishops in the UGC. In 1994, UGC Bishops Betty Jean Reeves and John Gilbert received sub conditione consecrations* in the Antioch-Malabar succession and numerous other lineages, as part of the general union of independent episcopal lineages in the late twentieth century.
*Sub conditione consecration: this is the term for an additional consecration given to someone already consecrated as a bishop. It was originally done in case some fault in the original consecration had prevented a valid transmission of apostolic succession; more recently, it has been used to unite the various lineages, “That they may all be One.”
Rome-Utrecht Succession
This was for many years the most widely held independent lineage in the West, passing from the Roman Church via the Old Catholic Chuch of the Netherlands to the Liberal Catholic Church. The dates given below are dates of consecration.
(1) Peter, 38
(2) Linus, 67
(3) Ancletus {Cletus}, 76
(4) Clement, 88
(5) Evaristus, 97
(6) Alexander I, 105
(7) Sixtus I, 115
(8) Telesphorus, 125
(9) Hygimus, 136
(10) Pius I, 140
(11) Anicetus, 155
(12) Soter, 166
(13) Eleutherius, 175
(14) Victor I, 189
(15) Zephyrinus, 199
(16) Callistus I, 217
(17) Urban I, 222
(18) Pontian, 230
(19) Anterus, 235
(20) Fabian, 236
(21) Cornelius, 251
(22) Lucius I, 253
(23) Stephen I, 254
(24) Sixtus II, 257
(25) Dionysius, 259
(26) Felix I, 269
(27) Eutychian, 275
(28) Caius, 283
(29) Marcellinus, 296
(30) Marcellus I, 308
(31) Eucebius, 309
(32) Melchiades {Miltiades}, 311
(33) Sylvester I, 314
(34) Marcus, 336
(35) Julius I, 337
(36) Liberius, 352
(37) Damasus I, 366
(38) Siricius, 384
(39) Anastasius I, 399
(40) Innocent I, 401
(41) Zosimus,417
(42) Boniface I, 418
(43) Celestine I, 422
(44) Sixtus III, 432
(45) Leo I, 440
(46) Hilary, 461
(47) Simplicius, 468
(48) Felix III, 483
(49) Gelasius I, 492
(50) Anastasius II, 496
(51) Symmachus, 498
(52) Hormisdus, 514
(53) John I, 523
(54) Felix IV, 526
(55) Boniface II,530
(56) John II, 535
(57) Agapitus, 535,
(58) Sylverius, 536
(59) Vigilus, 537
(60) Pelagius I, 556
(61) John III, 561
(62) Benedict I, 575
(63) Pelagius II, 579
(64) Gregory I, 590
(65) Sabinianus, 604
(66) Boniface III, 607
(67) Boniface IV, 608
(68) Deusdedit {Adeodatus I},615
(69) Boniface V, 619
(70) Honorius, 625
(71) Severinus, 640
(72) John IV, 640
(73) Theodore I, 642
(74) Martin I, 649
(75) Eugene I,654
(76) Vitalian, 657
(77) Adeodatus II, 672
(78) Donus, 676
(79) Agatho, 678
(80) Leo II, 682
(81) Benedict II, 684
(82) John V, 685
(83) Conon, 686
(84) Sergius I, 687
(85) John VI, 701
(86) John VII, 705
(87) Sisinnius, 708
(88) Constantine, 708
(89) Gregory II, 715
(90) Gregory III, 731
(91) Zachary, 741
(92) Stephen II, 752
(93) Paul I, 757
(94) Stephen III, 768
(95) Adrian I, 772
(96) Leo III, 795
(97) Stephen IV, 816
(98) Paschal I, 817
(99) Eugene II, 824
(100) Valentine, 827
(101) Gregory IV, 827
(102) Sergius II, 844
(103) Leo IV, 847
(104) Benedict III, 855
(105) Nicholas I the Great, 858
(106) Adrian II, 867
(107) John VIII, 872
(108) Marinus I, 882
(109) Adrian III, 884
(110) Stephen V, 885
(111) Formosus, 891
(112) Boniface VI, 896
(113) Stephen VI, 897
(114) Romanus, 897
(115) Theodore II, 897
(116) John IX, 898
(117) Benedict IV, 900
(118) Leo V, 903
(119) Sergius III, 904
(120) Anastasius III, 911
(121) Landus, 913
(122) John X, 914
(123) Leo VI, 938
(124) Stephen VII, 928
(125) John XI, 931
(126) Leo VII, 936
(127) Stephen VIII, 939
(128) Maginus II, 942
(129) Agapitus II,946
(130) John XII, 955
(131) Leo VII, 963
(132) Benedict V, 964
(133) John XII, 965
(134) Benedict VI, 973
(135) Benedict VII, 974
(136) John XIV, 983,
(138) John XV, 985
(139) Gregory V, 996
(140) Sylvester II, 999
(141) John XVII, 1003
(142) John XVIII, 1004
(143)Sergius IV, 1009
(144) Benedict VIII, 1012
(145) John XIX, 1024
(145) Benedict IX, 1032
(146) Sylvester III, 1045
(147) Benedict IX {restored},1045
(148) Gregory VI, 1045
(149) Clement II, 1046
(150) Benedict IX {restored again},1047
(151) Damasus II, 1048
(152) Leo IX, 1049
(153) Victor II, 1055
(154) Stephen IX, 1057
(155) Nicholas II, 1059
(156) Alexander II, 1061
(157) Gregory VII, 1073
(158) Victor III, 1087
(159) Urban II, 1088
(160) Paschal II, 1099
(161) Gelasius II, 1118
(162) Callistus II, 1119
(163) Honorius II, 1124
(164) Innocent II, 1130
(165) Celestine II, 1143
(166) Lucius II, 1144
(167) Eugene III 1145
(168) Anastasius IV, 1153
(169) Adrian IV, 1154
(170) Alexander III, 1159
(171) Lucius III, 1181
(172) Urban III, 1185
(173) Gregory VIII, 1187
(174) Clement III, 1187
(175) Celestine III, 1191
(176) Innocent III, 1198
(177) Honorius III, 1216
(178) Gregory IX, 1227
(179) Celestine IV, 1241
(180) Innocent IV, 1243
(181) Alexander IV, 1254:
(182) Urban IV, 1261
(183) Clement IV, 1265
(184) Gregory X, 1271
(185) Innocent V, 1276
(186) Adrian V, 1276
(187) John XXI, 1276
(188) Nicholas III, 1277
(189) Martin IV, 1281
(190) Honorius IV, 1285
(191) Nicholas IV 1288
(192) Celestine V, 1294
(193) Boniface VIII, 1294
(194) Benedict XI, 1303
(195) Clement V, 1305
(196) John XXII, 1316
(197) Benedict XII, 1334
(198) Clement VI, 1342
(199) Innocent VI, 1352
(200) Urban V, 1362
(201) Gregory XI, 1370
(202) Urban VI, 1378
(203) Boniface IX, 1389
(204) Innocent VII, 1389
(205) Gregory XII, 1406
(206) Martin V, 1417
(207) Eugene IV, 1431
(208) Nicholas V, 1447
(209) Callistus III, 1455
(210) Pius II, 1458
(211) Paul II, 1464
(212) Sixtus IV, 1471
(213) Innocent VIII, 1484
(214) Alexander VI, 1492
(215) Pius III, 1503
(216) Julius II,1503
(217) Leo X, 1513
(218) Adrian VI, 1522
(219) Clement VII, 1523
(220) Paul III, 1534
(221) Julius III, 1550
(222) Marcellus II, 1555
(223) Paul IV, 1555
(224) Pius IV, 1559
(225) Pius V, 1566
(226) Gregory XIII, 1572
(227) Sixtus V, 1585
(228) Urban VII, 1590
(229) Gregory XIV, 1590
(230) Innocent IX, 1591
(231) Clement VIII, 1592
(232) Leo XI, 1605
(233) Paul V, 1605
(234) Gregory XV 1621
(235) Urban VIII, 1623
(236) Innocent X, 1644
(237) Alexander VII, 1655
Catholic Bishops outside Rome:
(238) Antonio Barberini, 1655
(239) Michael le Tellier, 1668
(240) Jaques Benigne de Bousseut, 1670
(241) James Coyon de Matignon, 1693.
(242) Dominique-Marie Varlet, 1719
Bishops of the Old Catholic Church:
(243) Cornelius Van Steenhoven, 1724
(244) Johannes Van Stiphout, 1745
(245) Gaultherus Van Niewenhuizen, 1786
(246) Adrian Brockman, 1778
(247) Johannes Jacobus Van Rhijn, 1797
(248) Gilbertus de Jong, 1805
(249) Wilibrordus Van Os, 1814
(250) Johannes Bon, 1819
(251) Johannes Van Santen, 1825
(252) Hermanus Heijkamp, 1854
(253) Casparus Johannes Rinkel, 1873
(254) Geradus Gul, 1892.
Bishops of the Liberal Catholic Church:
(255) Matthew Arnold Harris, 1908
(256) Fredrick Willoughby, 1914
(257) James I. Wedgewood, 1916
(258) Irving S. Cooper, 1919
(259) Charles Hampton, 1931
(260) Robert Monroe, 1946
Bishops of the Universal Gnostic Church:
(261) Omar Zasluchy, 1952
(262) Rhodonn Starrus {Matthew Shaw}, 1952
(263) John F. Gilbert,1984
(264) John Michael Greer, 2004
Antiochan-Malabar Succession
This lineage passes from the Church of Antioch, the oldest of all Christian churches, to the independent church of Malabar in India and from there to the independent sacramental movement generally.
Bishops of Antioch:
(1) Peter, 38
(2) Evodus 40
(3) Ignatius I, 83
(4) Aaron, 123
(5) Cornelius, 123
(6) Eodos, 142
(7) Theophulus, 157
(8) Maximinus, 171
(9) Seraphim, 179
(10) Astlediaes, 189
(11) Philip, 201
(12) Sebinus {Zebinus}, 219
(13) Babylos, 237
(14) Fabius, 250
(15) Demetrius, 251
(16) Paul I, 259
(17) Domnus I, 270
(18) Timotheus, 281
(19) Cyrilus, 281
(20) Tyrantus, 296
(21) Vitalius, 301
(22) Philognius, 318
(23) Eustachius, 323
(24) Paulinius, 338
(25) Philabianus, 383
(26) Evagrius, 386
(27) Phosohorius, 416
(28) Alexander, 418
(29) John I, 428
(30) Theodotus, 431
(31) Domnus II, 442
(32) Maximus, 450
(33) Accacius, 454
(34) Martyrius, 457
(35) Peter II, 464
(36) Philadius, 500
(37) Serverius, 509
(38) Segius, 544
(39) Domnus III, 547
(40) Anastasius, 560
(41) Gregory I, 564
(42) Paul II, 567
(43) Patra, 571
(44) Domnus IV, 586
(45) Julianus, 591
(46) Athanasius I, 595
(47) John II, 636
(48) Theodorus I, 649
(49) Severus, 668
(50) Athanasius II, 684
(51) Julianus II, 687
(52) Elias I, 709
(53) Athanasius III 724
(54) Evanius I, 740
(55) Gervasius I, 759
(56) Joseph, 790
(57) Cyriacus, 793
(58) Dionysius I, 818
(59) John III, 847
(60) Ignatius II, 877
(61) Theodosius, 887
(62) Dionysius II 897
(63) John IV, 910
(64) Basilus I, 922
(65) John V, 936
(66) Evanius II, 954
(67) Dionysius III, 958
(68) Abraham I, 962
(69) John VI, 965
(70) Athamasius IV, 987
(71) John VII, 1004
(72) Dionysius IV, 1032
(73) Theodorus II, 1042
(74) Athanasius V, 1058
(75) John VIII, 1064
(76) Basilius II, 1074
(77) Abdoone, 1076
(78) Dionysius V, 1077
(79) Evanius III, 1080
(80) Dionysius VI, 1088
(81) Athanasius VI, 1091
(82) John IX, 1131
(83) Athanasius VII, 1139
(84) Michael I, 1167
(85) Athanasius VIII, 1200
(86) Michael II, 1207
(87) John X, 1208
(88) Ignatius III, 1223
(89) Dionysius VII, 1253
(90) John XI, 1253
(91) Ignatius IV, 1264
(92) Philanus, 1283
(93) Ignatius Baruhid, 1293
(94) Ignatius Ismael, 1333
(95) Ignatius Basilius III, 1366
(96) Ignatius Abraham II, 1382
(97) Ignatius Bacalius IV, 1412
(98) Ignatius Behanam I, 1415
(99) Ignatius Kalejih, 1455
(100) Ignatius John XII, 1483
(101) Ignatius Noah, 1492
(102) Ignatius Jesus I, 1509
(103) Ignatius Jacob I, 1510
(104) Ignatius David I, 1519
(105) Ignatius Abdullah I, 1520
(106) Ignatius Naamathalak, 1557
(107) Ignatius David II, 1577
(108) Ignatius Philathus, 1591
(109) Ignatius Abdullah II, 1597
(110) Ignatius Cadhai, 1598
(111) Ignatius Simeon, 1640
(112) Ignatius Jesus II, 1661
(113) Ignatius Messiah, 1661
(114) Ignatius Cabeeb, 1686
(115) Ignatius Gervasius II, 1687
(116) Ignatius Isaac, 1708
(117) Ignatius Siccarablak, 1722
(118) Ignatius Gervasius III, 1746
(119) Ignatius Gervasius IV, 1768
(120) Ignatius Mathias, 1781
(121) Ignatius Behanam, 1810
(122) Ignatius Jonas, 1817
(123) Ignatius Gervasius V, 1818
(124) Ignatius Elias II, 1839
(125) Ignatius Jacob II, 1847
(126) Mar Ignatius Peter III, 1872
Bishops of the Malabar Rite:
(127) Paulose Mar Athanasius (Kadavil Kooran), 1876
(128) Mar Julius I (Antonio Francis Xavier Alvares), 1889
(129) Joseph René Vilatte, 1892
(130) Frederick E. Lloyd, 1915
(131) Samuel Gregory Lines, 1923
(132) Justin Boyle, 1927
(133) Lowel Paul Wadle, 1940
(134) Herman Adrian Spruit, 1957
(135) Lewis S. Keizer, 1990
(136) Warren Smith, 1993
Bishops of the Universal Gnostic Church:
(137) John F. Gilbert, 1994
(138) John Michael Greer, 2004
Gnostic and Templar Succession
The Universal Gnostic Church also received, via John Gilbert and Betty Reeve’s consecrations by Warren Smith, the line of apostolic succession of several French Templar orders and Gnostic churches. This line diverges from the Roman succession in 1735, and passes by way of Catholic bishops outside Rome to the French Eglise Constitutionelle, and from there via French independent Templar, Gnostic, and Albigensian churches to the Gnostic movement generally.
Bishops of Rome:
(238) Clement IX, 1667
(239) Clement X, 1670
(240) Innocent XI, 1676
(241) Alexander VIII, 1689
(242) Innocent XII, 1691
(243) Clement XI, 1700
(244) Innocent XIII, 1721
(245) Benedict XIII, 1724
Catholic Bishops outside Rome:
(246) Melchior de Polignac, 1735
(247) Antoine-Pierre de Grammont II, 1744
(248) Joseph Rinck von Baldenstein, 1759
(249) Joseph Nicolas de Montenach, 1772
Bishops of the Eglise Constitutionelle:
(250) Jean-Baptiste Gobel, 1791
(251) Antoine-Adrien Lamourette, 1791
(252) Jean-Baptiste Royer, 1800
Johannite Bishops:
(253) Guillaume Mauviel, 1810
(254) Bernard Fabré-Palaprat, 1810
(255) Jean Machault, 1831
(256) François-Ferdinand Chatel, 1836
(257) Michel-Henri D'Adhemar, 1857
Albigensian Bishops:
(258) Manuel López de Brion, 1860
(259) Paul-Pierre de Marraga, 1899
Gnostic Bishops:
(260) Lucien-François Jean-Maine, 1953
(261) Hector-François Jean-Maine, 1966
(262) Michael Bertiaux, 1979
(263) Forest Ernest Barber, 1987
(264) Bertil Persson, 1989
(265) George Boyer, 1990
(266) Lewis Keizer, 1993
(267) Warren Smith, 1993
Bishops of the Universal Gnostic Church:
(268) John Gilbert, 1994
(269) John Michael Greer, 2004
Additional Recognized Successions
Other recognized lineages of apostolic succession received by the Universal Gnostic Church are summarized below. The details can be found in any general history of independent bishops.
Armenian Uniate:
Chorchurian - Chechemian - Crow - Newman - Maxey - Wadle - Spruit - Keizer - Smith – Gilbert - Greer
Syro-Chaldean:
St. Thomas - Shimun XVIII - Antony - Bartlett - Newman - Maxey - Wadle – Spruit - Keizer - Smith – Gilbert - Greer
Anglican Celtic:
Moore - White - Hopkins - Chechemian - Crow - Newman - Maxey – Wadle - Spruit - Keizer - Smith – Gilbert - Greer
American Greek Melchite:
Cyril VI - Savoya - Aneed - Spruit - Keizer - Smith – Gilbert - Greer
Orthodox Patriarchate of Constantinople:
Sergius - Kleefish - Aneed - Wadle - Spruit - Keizer - Smith - Gilbert - Greer
Russian Orthodox:
Nikon - Makarius - Ortinsky - Kleefish - Aneed - Wadle - Spruit - Keizer – Smith – Gilbert - Greer
Non-Juring Bishops of Scotland:
Montaigne - Seabury - Richardson - Newman - Maxey - Wadle - Spruit - Keizer - Smith - Gilbert - Greer
Syrian-Malabar:
Alvares - Vilatte - Miraglia - Lloyd - Lines - Raleigh - Wadle - Spruit - Keizer - Smith - Gilbert - Greer
Syrian-Gallican:
Alvares - Vilatte - Miraglia - Lloyd - Lines - Raleigh - Wadle - Spruit - Keizer - Smith - Gilbert - Greer
Coptic:
Alvares - Vilatte - Miraglia - Lloyd - Lines - Raleigh - Wadle - Spruit - Keizer - Smith - Gilbert - Greer
Coptic Uniate:
Alvares - Vilatte - Miraglia - Lloyd - Lines - Raleigh - Wadle - Spruit - Keizer - Smith - Gilbert - Greer
Anglican, Non-Celtic:
Alvares - Vilatte - Miraglia - Lloyd - Lines - Raleigh - Wadle - Spruit – Keizer - Smith - Gilbert - Greer
Irish:
Alvares - Vilatte - Miraglia - Lloyd - Lines - Raleigh - Wadle - Spruit - Keizer - Smith - Gilbert - Greer
Welsh:
Alvares - Vilatte - Miraglia - Lloyd - Lines - Raleigh - Wadle - Spruit - Keizer - Smith – Gilbert - Greer
Mariavite:
Alvares - Vilatte - Miraglia - Lloyd - Lines - Raleigh - Wadle - Spruit - Keizer - Smith – Gilbert - Greer
Old Greek Melchite (Byzantine):
Alvares - Vilatte - Miraglia - Lloyd - Lines - Raleigh - Wadle - Spruit - Keizer - Smith - Gilbert - Greer
Old Armenian:
Alvares - Vilatte - Miraglia - Lloyd - Lines - Raleigh - Wadle - Spruit - Keizer - Smith - Gilbert - Greer
Order of Corporate Reunion:
Mar Georgius - Symanski - Ashley – Gilbert - Greer
Liberal Catholic:
Wedgewood - Cooper - Hampton - Sheehan - Symanski - Ashley - Gilbert - Greer
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It is very cool that you have this. I will have to spend some time on this.
Thank you!
Bert
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How many of the Apostles still have lineages going?
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Several people asked why there is no John XX among the bishops of Rome. There's an entire Wikipedia article on the snafu the medieval church made of that name.
Cantrap of the Master Philologist
(Anonymous) 2023-07-06 11:17 pm (UTC)(link)him. See, my dear, he made this cantrap for me with his own hand and
ink." And Jurgen read from the parchment, impressively: "'At the
death of Adrian the Fifth, Pedro Juliani, who should be named John
the Twentieth, was through an error in the reckoning elevated to the
papal chair as John the Twenty-first.'"
Said Anaïtis, blankly: "And is that all?"
"Why, yes: and surely thirty-two whole words should be enough for
the most exacting."
"But is it magic? are you certain it is authentic magic?"
"I have learned that there is always magic in words."
And in the event, as recorded in the chronicles of Poictesme, the cantrap was powerful enough to get Jurgen into heaven as Pope John XX.
https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/james-branch-cabell/jurgen/text/chapter-40
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Would I be right to conclude that the Liberal Catholic Church ordains women? Any of the other churches you mention? Was that ever an issue?
Re: Cantrap of the Master Philologist
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High Geekdom
(Anonymous) 2023-07-07 02:10 am (UTC)(link)I'm glad the other facets of geekdom beyond the pop culture "geeks" that have somehow become so cool this past decade or so are getting some air time here.
The Armenian connection is interesting to me. I've had some dreams & visions/scrying that connected to an Armenian strain of myth & magic, including some of their Christian mysticism. I'm still not totally sure what it means in relation to my own path, but it does remind that there is a thread I should follow up on, more than I have so far.
Reading along these posts with interest.
Justin Patrick Moore
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(Anonymous) 2023-07-07 10:13 am (UTC)(link)You are only listing consecrations you received via John Gilbert. Is this because the other two bishops who consecrated you basically have the same lineages?
And why would it be important to receive consecrations by three people then? To ensure if one lineage is doubted, the others still remain intact? (But then again, why not list them here in this case?)
(Or am I making this more complicated than it is, and you simply stopped formatting lists after John Gilberts lineages, because formatting is a boring job even on the best of days? ;-) If so, would you care to at least mention the other two bishops?)
Milkyway
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Re: High Geekdom
The Isle of Wight
(Anonymous) 2023-07-07 07:59 pm (UTC)(link)Many years ago I knew someone who said he had received the successorship to the bishop of the Isle of Wight.
Does this ring a bell at all to you?
Thanks!
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(Anonymous) 2023-07-07 09:08 pm (UTC)(link)Milkyway
Re: The Isle of Wight
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Slightly related, I assume the UGC doesn’t mean the same thing by the term “gnostic” as the first-century Christian heresy?
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Gnosicism
(Anonymous) 2023-07-08 07:13 am (UTC)(link)May be one day we may have a post of gnosticism and its history? (a brief intorduction that is!)
Thank you!
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(Anonymous) 2023-07-08 11:53 am (UTC)(link)no subject
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Gnosticism, when it takes its own core insights seriously, leaves very little room for the claim that anybody human can tell anybody else what the truth is about religious matters. Gnosis, direct personal acquaintance, is not the same as episteme, formal discursive knowledge. Lao Tsu was as usual dead on target: "The Tao that can be talked about is not the eternal Tao."
Re: Gnosicism
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(Anonymous) 2023-07-08 10:23 pm (UTC)(link)Out of historical curiosity, do you happen to know roughly how many members the UGC had in its strongest days, or maybe overall over time?
Milkyway
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(Anonymous) 2023-07-09 12:34 am (UTC)(link)no subject
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Matthew 16:13-18 (NIV)
When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
Now I was raised non-Catholic, so we were taught that the "rock" that Jesus' church was built on was not Peter himself (as the first pope), but rather Peter's confession, i.e. the fact that Jesus was none other than the Messiah, the Son of God. But after reading your comments above, I can see it another way. I can hear Jesus teaching the apostles not to choose what they believe about him from a list of man-made doctrines, but from what the Divine reveals directly to them--from gnosis. That would be the rock on which the church is built--personal revelation and experience of the Divine, not some particular set of dogmas.
I just never noticed to possibility of seeing it that way until now...
Lineage Karma
(Anonymous) 2023-07-12 01:24 am (UTC)(link)I have to imagine accepting the current of dozens of orthodox clergy has an impact on one's energies.
Re: Lineage Karma
The positive side includes a focus on healing energies and on individual spiritual perception. That said, I certainly recommend spending ample time on discernment before committing to anything like this. It's also entirely appropriate to explore the minor orders and reflect on that experience before going further.
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wannabe-geek question
Thank you,
Emily07