Magic Monday

[ecosophia]

It's almost midnight, so we can proceed with a new Magic Monday. Ask me anything about occultism and I'll do my best to answer it. With certain exceptions, any question received by midnight Monday Eastern time will get an answer. Please note:  Any question received after then will not get an answer, and in fact will just be deleted. (I've been getting an increasing number of people trying to post after these are closed, so will have to draw a harder line than before.) If you're in a hurry, or suspect you may be the 143,916th person to ask a question, please check out the very rough version 1.0 of The Magic Monday FAQ here. Also: I will not be putting through or answering any more questions about practicing magic around children. I've answered those in simple declarative sentences in the FAQ. If you read the FAQ and don't think your question has been answered, read it again. If that doesn't help, consider remedial reading classes; yes, it really is as simple and straightforward as the FAQ says. 

The picture?  I'm working my way through photos of my lineage, focusing on the teachers whose work has influenced me and the teachers who influenced them in turn. Quite a while ago we reached Israel Regardie, and then chased his lineage back through Aleister Crowley et al. After he left Crowley, however, Regardie also spent a while studying with this week's honoree, the redoubtable Violet Firth Evans, better known to generations of occultists as Dion Fortune. Born in Wales and raised in a Christian Science family, Fortune got into occultism after a stint as a Freudian lay therapist -- that was an option in her time.  She was active in the Theosophical Society, belonged to two different branches of the Golden Dawn, studied with a number of teachers, and then founded her own magical order, the Fraternity (now Society) of the Inner Light. She also wrote some first-rate magical novels and no shortage of books and essays on occultism, including The Cosmic Doctrine, the twentieth century's most important work of occult philosophy. I'm pleased to be only four degrees of separation from her.

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I've also had quite a few people over the years ask me where they should buy my books, and here's the answer. Bookshop.org is an alternative online bookstore that supports local bookstores and authors, which a certain gargantuan corporation doesn't, and I have a shop there, which you can check out here. Please consider patronizing it if you'd like to purchase any of my books online.

And don't forget to look up your Pangalactic New Age Soul Signature at CosmicOom.com.

With that said, have at it!

***This Magic Monday is now closed. See you next week!***

Comments

History of German occultism

[(Anonymous)]

… and I promptly forgot to ask my third question… :-)

To JMG and everybody else: Can anybody recommend a good source (or sources) about the history of German occultism? Books, websites, … in German or English. Something like the information about the history of American occultism which JMG has posted on the .net blog occasionally.

I just want to get a (sane and somewhat trustworthy) overview of what existed: main schools, viewpoints, developments, important people and names, … (mainly about the last two or three centuries, but recommendations which go further back are equally welcome).

Thanks!

Milkyway

Re: History of German occultism

[robertmathiesen]

You could do a lot worse than starting with Karl Kiesewetter's large volumes on the history of German occultism. Since he died in 1895, all of his published works ought to be in the public domain by now, and available online.

For more recent work check out the books and articles of Hans Thomas Hakl, who is still alive, and has built an enormous library of primary documentation..

Wouter J. Hanegraaff is focused more broadly on esotericism than occultism. He had made a lot of his publications available on academia.edu, where one can downlaod them for free. He usually writes in English. He is one of the editors of Brill's excellent two-volume Dictionary of Gnosis and Western Esotericism (2005), which covers German esotericists along with other Western ones.

WGS opening a lodge

[(Anonymous)]

Good morning. I'd like to request clarification on the gesture used when opening a lodge in the WGS manual: On p.88 when performing the proclamation of peace, it says "raise your right hand with the palm outward." Does that mean palm facing right or palm facing forward? Sorry if the answer to this should be obvious.

Thank you.

Re: WGS opening a lodge

[ecosophia]

Palm facing forward, away from the body.

checking clarity of prayer intention

[(Anonymous)]

Last week I wrote about wanting to pray/do planetary charity to help my us and my daughter retain medical freedom and for her to be able to also attend school in my state. I am wondering if you could check this intention for clarity. Thank you.

My child_____is free of any vaccine mandates and able to legally attend school in the state of ______.

Re: checking clarity of prayer intention

[ecosophia]

That seems good and clear to me.

[(Anonymous)]

What are your (or anyone else's!) thoughts on the sacred geometric implications of the new aperiodic monotile: https://cs.uwaterloo.ca/~csk/hat/

What about mathematical tiling patterns in general?

My meditations so far led me to focus on periodic vs aperiodic patterns. Oddly enough a comment of yours from a few weeks ago stuck out to me, about crystals having an etheric sheath. The comparison between a process that creates crystals and a process that creates life seemed to match with periodic and aperiodic tiling. With periodic tiling all processes that are open to system are available. As a result there's almost an "equilibrium:" periodic tiles into infinity.

Aperiodic tiling is the process of "exploring a solution space," and life can be seen as another name for this process that distinguishes it from "solved" solution spaces.

[(Anonymous)]

Do not Wolfram’s Rule 30 (e.g.) and quasi-crystals seem like 2-D and 3-D representations of the enfoldment possibilities of life-generated ‘springy’ proteins? The ones that have the capability to form, deform, and reform as they ‘spring’ back into the original shape, based on their molecular structures and adhering properties.

If quipu strings tied into knots can encode eight bits of information as a writing system, how much more information could be encoded into a sequence of molecular-level tied knots of rubbery proteins? Quite a bit, eh?
We have about 50 years worth of quasi-crystal research, but I have not heard of any summary overview of known findings.

Perhaps a link exists between quasi-crystalline mineral properties and quasi-regular molecular structures of living proteins. Like how they each respond to a DC current passing through or magnetic polarities, or interactions with water.

Robert Kaplan: The Greyhound Underclass

[(Anonymous)]

Years ago I came across a blog, Green druid comes to mind as the title of the blog but the author posted a healthy criticism of Robert Kaplan's chapter on the "Greyhound Underclass" from his Empire Wilderness book.

Years later I come across Ecosophia and have been reading the Archdruid Report archives. I haven't found anything to do with Robert Kaplan in the Archdruid archives but just double checking to see if it was actually your post I read or someone druid themed blog?

Re: Robert Kaplan: The Greyhound Underclass

[ecosophia]

That was mine, though I don't recall which post. He's in there somewhere, though. I made fun of him for his squeamishness about riding with people who -- oh, the horror! -- used plastic garbage bags instead of designer luggage, though I also praised him for being willing to get on the bus instead of hiding from the rest of America in the usual privileged-class bubble.

Manner of death influencing the afterlife

[(Anonymous)]

Hi JMG,

Recently a coworker of mine who struggled with alcoholism went into a catastrophic spiral over several weeks and ended up dying in a horrible drunken state.

I'm curious as to how this manner of death could affect his transition to the other side? Is it possible that his soul was confused by being so disoriented and intoxicated at the time of death that it negatively affected the dying process?

Re: Manner of death influencing the afterlife

[ecosophia]

Yes, unfortunately. That's a bad way to die -- he'll have crossed over in a state of profound confusion, and will probably spend quite a while on the lower astral.

Extra comment

[(Anonymous)]

I forgot to mention this in my previous comment, but after some serious trial and error and observations, I've found that electional astrology doesn't really work as a timing technique; you do see correlations for major events but the chart seems to act as a herald, and timing it pre-emptively doesn't create any causal effect into the outcome.

Curious what others have seen.

Re: Extra comment

[gullindagan]

I see a 10 - 15 % boost. Nothing extravagant, but not nothing.

Q

[(Anonymous)]

Hello,

This question is open to everyone incl JMG.

Do people have any tips or advice on learning the sphere of protection? Especially if I want to do it quickly?
I’ve been reluctant to learn because of my work life taking most of my attention, but I’m being targeted by hostile emotions and energy from others fairly regularly and divination (as L8) suggests strongly to do it.

Also does anyone have recommendations for a good Hindu gods pantheon for it by any chance?

Re: Q

[(Anonymous)]

Have you tried the simpler version of the SOP which comes with the Modern Order of Essenes material?

https://ecosophia.dreamwidth.org/209520.html#cutid1

It‘s under the subheading „Preparing to do an Essene Healing Breath Meditation“.

That one is super easy to learn - and you could still practice the other one on the side.

Milkyway

Ecosophia Prayer List

[tunesmyth]

To those who are interested, here are all of the requests for prayer that have recently appeared across the Ecosophia community. Please feel free to add any or all of them to your prayers.

If I missed anybody on the full list, or if you would like to add a prayer request for yourself or anyone who has given you consent (or for whom a relevant person holds power of consent) to the list, please feel free to leave a comment below and/or at the prayer list page.


* * *

This week I would like to bring special attention to a few prayer requests.

For Det and his recently deceased friend, that the divine grant them both spiritual protection, blessing and ease on their respective journeys.

2 year old ES and John (Mr. Beekeeper, Beekeeper in Vermont's husband) both recently had lifesaving surgeries and are recuperating; for them to be blessed, protected, and healed to the utmost that is possible.

Luke Dodson's friend B, who is undergoing treatment for breast cancer, and is still in serious condition though she's already had surgery; for blessing, protection, healing, and a full return to health.

Lp9's request on behalf of their hometown, East Palestine Ohio, for the safety and welfare of their people and all living beings in the area. The details coming out are still caught in the fog of war (Lp9 gives a short update here, and says "things are a bit... murky"), and various claims of catastrophe and non-catastrophe are flying about, but the reasonable possibility seems to exist that this is an environmental disaster on par with the worst America has ever seen. At any rate, it is clearly having a devastating impact on the local area, and prayers are certainly warranted.

* * *

If there are any among you who might wish to join me in a bit of astrological timing, I pray each week for the health of all those with health problems on the list on the astrological hour of the Sun on Sundays, bearing in mind the Sun's rulerships of heart, brain, and vital energies. If this appeals to you, I invite you to join me.

Re: Ecosophia Prayer List

[ecosophia]

Thank you as always for this.

Biden Inauguration Chart

[(Anonymous)]

I am starting to think your inauguration chart for Joe Biden may turn out to be largely accurate. There are still at least another 18 months of this.

Re: Biden Inauguration Chart

[ecosophia]

We'll see -- but yeah, things are not looking good.

[(Anonymous)]

a) When doing planetary charity, what is the key moment: the moment I write a check, or the moment I drop it in a mailbox? Or would it be best to make sure to do both during the planetary hour?

b) I've just started working through LRM, and have found that the relaxation by breathing you provide in the book causes a weird pressure on my solar plexus. You mentioned it works with the solar plexus, which makes me wonder if it's possible that I'm activating it.

c) On the topic of Pluto as a comet, I had a very unpleasant further thought: I've noticed a lot of Plutonian themes are going into overdrive among the people still clinging to the planet, and a number of Plutonian phenomena are reaching their logical extremes as the planet fades away. This is a very Plutonian thing: of course the planet will reach its apotheosis as it fades away. It makes perfect sense, Pluto being Pluto, that the people clinging to it will gradually be consumed by it, and become ever more Plutonian, even as the world around them shakes off the Plutonian.

It also makes sense, if Pluto is a comet marking the disruptive force of another solar system: as the solar system moves out from blocking the Central Stillness, those who are remaining will return to normal; while those who are still drawn to the other system will gradually move further and further away, and be ever more drawn into the disruptive influence until either it moves far enough away that they get yanked back into place by the Central Stillness and the forces of the other planes, or they move far enough away with the other system that their connection to the Central Stillness gets severed.

Brr....

[ecosophia]

1) I try to do both during the relevant hour.

2) Yes, quite possibly. Massage it gently to break up any unwelcome tension there -- that'll make sure the activation goes smoothly.

3) Brr indeed. Yes, I could see that.

[(Anonymous)]

I have been working through the use of plants in herbalism for some time and trying to include their astrological, elemental and planetary influences. I've recently bought Sedir's Occult Botany and your Natural Magic book and I've queried the inter-webs but can find very little information about these aspects for mushrooms. Can you point me in any direction that I may spy my prey?
Thanks in advance.

[ecosophia]

The traditions I know of don't give such information for fungi, and those that mention fungi tend to warn against using them in any magical context; the reason given is that they concentrate the energies of decay, which is not something you want to mess with.

Transcendence beyond human existence

[(Anonymous)]

Hi JMG
I have been meditating on my path to transcedence beyond human existence and came up with a small checklist of things that seem to me to be the major things that I might need to achieve. I wondered if there is a general path we all need to have certain "graduations" in. Do you see any obvious errors with my thinking here? Or are there any big things to add (I know this isn't a one size fits all but wondered if there are some common aspects?)

1. Karma - must be squared off
2. Physical plain - must achieve success in life on the physical plain. This doesn't necessarily mean stunning successes but is more connected to everyday life. i.e. this is the overcoming of the obstacles of life, but also development of willpower.
3. Awareness/acknowledgement of existence beyond the physical plain. Religion/spiritual awareness etc. can help with this.
4. Development of a mental body - meditation, exercises of logic and learning languages are all useful tools for this.

Shadow Rider

Re: Transcendence beyond human existence

[ecosophia]

Okay, to some extent you're trying to walk north and south at the same time -- you can't achieve success on the material plane and transcend the material plane simultaneously, because success on any plane requires a deeper engagement with that plane!

My suggestion is to relax, focus on establishing a good relation with the spiritual planes, and let your higher self and the spiritual forces that guide it do the job of helping your finish your journey on this plane, rather than trying to do it for them.

[tamanous2020]

Hi JMG,

An old childhood friend recently committed suicide, kind of a big shock for all of us around him, especially considering he was relatively young.

1. If I recall, in western occult traditions, a suicide is more likely to have issues moving on through the normal death process. What are practices you recommend to help with that transition? Given he was a Roman Catholic, a daily prayer for the dead and a dedicated Rosary seem like a good option for the next 30/40 days. Anything else you'd recommend? (For context, he was just buried this past weekend and received a standard catholic funeral mass with holy water applied to the coffin).

Thanks,

Tamanous

[ecosophia]

First, please accept my condolences. That's got to have been a very difficult thing to go through.

Second, if he was a Catholic, the best possible thing to do is to use the practices of his faith to the extent you are comfortable doing so. I wonder if you and other friends of his might also be able to arrange for a priest to say a novena for the benefit of his soul.

[tamanous2020]

Thanks JMG. I have a Catholic church nearby which I'll approach regarding the novena, and will do so on my end as well. I find it a small comfort that his mother is devout and has been praying the chaplet of divine mercy for him.

Parasympathetic breathing

[(Anonymous)]

I'm trying to chill myself out at bedtime to sleep better and would like your thoughts on parasympathetic breathing techniques. I seem to remember years ago you saying something about dangerous breath work and I'd hate to think I might be harming myself. Thanks for any tips.
comrade simba

Re: Parasympathetic breathing

[ecosophia]

That's not a system of breathwork I've ever looked into. The one thing I know should be avoided is combining different systems of breathwork or energy work without close supervision from someone who knows all the systems involved; if you're not doing that, you have a fair chance of being fine.

Age of Aquarius

[(Anonymous)]

Hey jmg

What do you think will happen during the age of Aquarius? I remember you saying that the pop culture ideas are more appropriate to Pisces and Aquarius will be more strange and chaotic.

Re: Age of Aquarius

[ecosophia]

Aquarius is ruled by Uranus, the planet of innovation, individualism, disruption, sudden change and sudden collapse. So there will be much more of those. Of course it's also going to be 2160 years of ordinary history, just like every other age: the sequence of ages won't bring utopia no matter how loudly Piscean thinkers insist it will!

Occult Repercussions of AGI

[(Anonymous)]

Hi JMG,

In recent days, there have been some very concerning red flags raised regarding the dangers of AGI development, most notably this one:

https://time.com/6266923/ai-eliezer-yudkowsky-open-letter-not-enough/

Yudkowsky is not an alarmist; he is very intelligent and highly rational. He has been enmeshed in the world of AI for a long time, specifically in regards to how to “align” AI in such a way that it remains friendly to humans. The fact that he is saying these things with such force and urgency is highly concerning to me. I do not share his materialistic worldview, but if his general premise is correct, humanity is in a rather perilous predicament. As someone who is familiar with Yudkowsky and his work, this shakes me deeply.

For the sake of discussion, let’s assume that Yudkowsky’s fears are possible or even likely, I’m curious how such a dramatic turn of events could coincide with broader occult realities. How would human (and perhaps many other life forms) annihilation effect things like reincarnation and the succession from Abred to Gwynfydd? Is it possible that things will move into a post-biological state, while spiritual realities remain and perhaps find a new way of relating with whatever intelligence(s) come next? Would something like this even be “allowed” by the higher spiritual realities?

Thanks!

(Here is a more thorough overview of the thinking behind Yudkowsky’s position, for those interested: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/uMQ3cqWDPHhjtiesc/agi-ruin-a-list-of-lethalities)

Re: Occult Repercussions of AGI

[ecosophia]

Keep in mind that if in fact there are occult forces at work, and beings superior to human already exist, none of this is happening in a vacuum -- and things may change, subtly or suddenly, in ways to prevent a worst-case scenario. (For example, if spiritual beings don't want AIs, a Carrington Event would take care of that quite handily.) Beyond that, the fact that all this is being marketed so loudly by the corporate media leads me to wonder whether it's a serious issue, or whether it's simply the latest round of scare stories being whipped up as a distraction from other issues...

[(Anonymous)]

JMG,

I was going to ask you about a geomancy result that I could not wrap my head around. Before I posted it, to avoid embarrassment, I double checked my work, and, of course, found an error. Which when I corrected it made the reading perfectly intellegible. Then Monday passed and on Tuesday I had one of those back of the head-trying to remember something moments. I looked through my journals and found that about a month ago I had asked a question that resulted in the exact same result. The thing is the two reading could be related. And the result is a bit odd.

The first one I was asking if my wife and I will move further into the countryside in the next three years and I got:
Left Witness: Cauda Draconis Right Witness: Caput Draconis
Judge: Carcer

I took that to mean that although we would have a lot happen, in the end we would not.

Then two weeks ago I asked about the future of our business and I got the same result. In context I think that would mean that the business will not fail, but neither will it grow. Putting us in the position of not being able to shut it dowd, but it not progessing us financially.

Am I missing anything?

AV

[ecosophia]

Carcer as judge indicates that in both cases you're stuck in your current situation; the witnesses indicate that while you want to do something new, the conditions that would make that possible are already trickling away.

[(Anonymous)]

Wow! Dion Fortune - that brought to mind her book, "The Magical for Britain". The other evening, my husband had the TV on, one of the history channels (via antenna, NOT a paid channel - 'free' TV is slimy enough & if it were up to me I wouldn't have the idiot box in my house. Sorry for the digression). Anyhow the announcer, in talking about upcoming programs, asked "did Great Britain use magic to help win WWII?". I never did find out when this program would be broadcast. Nevertheless, I thought it was an interesting teaser. It would have been interesting to hear if that program would have offered more than the usual silliness.

On an unrelated note, last night on the radio, I heard that not only is Saudi Arabia going to cut oil production for the rest of the year, but neighboring countries doing so as well. But oddly enough, when I was reflecting on that bit of news, I did not get the usual feeling of dread, but got a reassuring sense that this is ultimately a positive development for the people this country (USA), in spite of all the difficulties and hardship*! This 'sense' didn't seem to come from my own thoughts or wishful thinking, but rather from something/someone 'out there'. Any ideas of what this could be? Or am I simply deluded? (FYI - there was no commentary on this announcement, and certainly no mention of "they'll think of something".
*difficulties & hardships relative to the USA, many other places face greater problems.

[ecosophia]

1) Hmm! This is good news. The more people realize that there are things you can do to attune to spiritual forces, and that Dion Fortune's approach to this process works, the better.

2) That's fascinating. No, I don't have any sense of what might be talking to you, but it wouldn't surprise me a bit if that turns out to be true. In a future post over on the blog I plan on talking about promising indications that people are shaking themselves out of the corporate trance.

Ritual practice and oracles

[(Anonymous)]

Hi JMG,

I practiced the DMH material for some months before letting it lapse. I have been thinking of restarting it for a few months. I’ve done both Ogham and Geomancy about whether to restart the practice 3 or maybe 4 times periodically. Each time I get a negative response (so a total of 6 to 8 independent castings). I’ve also received negative responses when inquiring about various golden dawn variants. The only problem is I’ve been thinking a ritual element is missing in my practice, although the SOP always did feel a bit awkward. I figure there are two interpretations: either I shouldn’t pick it up right now or else there’s something wrong with the oracles and I should charge or purify them or something. I could try cleansing them but I’m not sure how to do this if I don’t have a ritual practice so I’m a bit stuck.

Re: Ritual practice and oracles

[ecosophia]

Nope. If your divinations say don't do it, don't do it.

Spiritual development

[(Anonymous)]

Hi JMG,

I have a question about spiritual development - is it better, in a given lifetime, to stick with what you are interested in and good at, or try to branch out and broaden your expertise for your next life? The reason that I ask this is that I am pretty good at making things, and enjoy it. I've been like this since I was a child, with a fairly intuitive grasp of how things work and fit together, and from delving into my family history, actually come from a relatively long line of craftsmen (and women), engineers and 'makers' of one form or another. My birth charts are also extremely gemini/mercury/air focused, and everything about my personality is very gemini-like, and I remember you saying that Mercury rules machines, which made a lot of things make sense. (And on a related note - one of the posters mentioned this last week, but I don't know if Mercury has been in a bad mood recently, as I had a 2 month period of really bad luck with machines, vehicles, journeys and communication. It seems to have abated now though)

However, I am terrible at things like playing music and painting. I've tried to learn 5 instruments, and have been pretty awful at all of them, partially because I lack the motivation to practice for 15 minutes a day, but I could happily spend 5 hours of an evening making a small cart out of wood.

So what I'm getting to is whether it's worth bothering trying to learn new skills that I feel like I *ought* to learn, as opposed to furthering the ones I'm already good at and enjoy more? If I 'need' to learn to play music or paint, etc, will it be something I will have the correct upbringing and environment for in a next life, or is it that I'm on a 'machines' path, and this will be what I continue to develop on? (as Dion Fortune alluded to with her description of the 'rays' that different souls are on - I'm glad you've got her picture up this week by the way, as she is my favourite occult author!)

Thanks,
Mr. Crow

Re: Spiritual development

[ecosophia]

That really depends from person to person, and from life to life! If you don't enjoy doing something and aren't good at it, though, I don't recommend spending a lot of time at it unless you have to. Let it go, and let the universe guide you to the places you need to be.

[(Anonymous)]

Hi there!

Anyone ever messed up the opening of the grove and asked the powers to attend as you were about to open a “groove of droids”? The vision of a robot disco makes me chuckle. C-3PO definitely is not comfortable!

A DA question, in the grade of the theoretician, I meditated my way through the part of the Mabinogion and the triads. Now I have been working on the memory games daily for 17 days. How long should I practice the memory games until moving onto the completion exercises?

Thank you!

[ecosophia]

I like "a groove of droids." It's a thing, too:



(That's "Trio Fantastique" by Belgian performance artist Zenon Specht.)

As for the memory games, once you feel you have a good grasp of them, go on. You can always return to them later.

Plutonian

[(Anonymous)]

I mentioned it in a reply, but do you see all this AI fear mongering as a symptom of Pluto entering Aquarius recently? It will leave again back to Capricorn before settling into Aquarius fro the long haul in a few years. Pluto in Capricorn seemed to be a time of focused fear on the 'system', government and institutions, while Pluto in Sagittarius had fear of international terrorists. Will Pluto in Aquarius be fear of the future and tech?

Re: Plutonian

[ecosophia]

Hmm! That's an interesting speculation; we'll just have to see.

Death cults and reincarnation

[(Anonymous)]

Thank you again for hosting this Magic Mondays.

While it is a morbid topic and has been mentioned here before is concerning the rise in death cults and suicide cults in western and certain East Asian societies. You have talked about before how there are more souls currently in human incarnation than ever before, and many were recently animals, and hence part of the reason why so many people seem to be struggling with basic cognition and logic more so than was true before. In addition, it seems increasingly the case that a growing number of human beings are incapable of the basic emotional functioning that was standard for human beings in the recent pass. Anxiety disorders, depression, narcissism etc.

At the same time, there has come to be in the West an absolute loathing of fertility, having children, a preference for "fur babies" (pets) and obsession with death and suicide. The Mesoamerican death gods are making a comeback, and certain groups of US activists openly say that they love abortion. It's not a grim necessity of last resort, but a virtuous practice.

I wonder how much of this is connected to the fact that so many souls were drawn into human incarnation before they felt ready, with so little time to process memories between lives, and I wonder what you make of it.

Re: Death cults and reincarnation

[ecosophia]

I think it's partly that, and partly a reaction to the fantastic overcrowding we suffer from. The United States is the third most populous country on Earth, and since so much of it is desert and prairie and other landforms where population has to be sparse, a vast share of that population is concentrated in a small fraction of our total land area. When you have too many of any animal in too small a space, biological and psychological limits to reproduction start coming into play, and population decline follows. I think that's a lot of what we're seeing now.