Open (More or Less) Post on Covid 6

[ecosophia]

The semi-open posts  I've hosted here on the Covid-19 narrative, the inadequately tested experimental drugs for it, and the whole cascading mess surrounding them have continued to field a gargantuan (and increasing) number of comments, so I'm opening another space for discussion. The rules are the same as before: 

1. If you plan on parroting the party line of the medical industry and its paid shills, please go away. This is a place for people to talk openly, honestly, and freely about their concerns that the party line in question is dangerously flawed and that actions being pushed by the medical industry et al. are causing injury and death. It is not a place for you to dismiss those concerns. Anyone who wants to hear the official story and the arguments in favor of it can find those on hundreds of thousands of websites.

2. If you plan on insisting that the current situation is the result of a deliberate plot by some villainous group of people or other, please go away. There are tens of thousands of websites currently rehashing various conspiracy theories about the Covid-19 outbreak and the vaccines. This is not one of them. What we're exploring is the likelihood that what's going on is the product of the same arrogance, incompetence, and corruption that the medical industry and its tame politicians have displayed so abundantly in recent decades. That possibility deserves a space of its own for discussion, and that's what we're doing here. 

3. If you don't believe in treating people with common courtesy, please go away. I have, and enforce, a strict courtesy policy on my blogs and online forums, and this is no exception. The sort of schoolyard bullying that takes place on so many other internet forums will get you deleted and banned here. No, I don't care if you disagree with that: my journal, my rules. 

With that said, the floor is open for discussion. 

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

This is happening in a small midwestern city of approximately 14000 people. There is a significant surge in the number of sick individuals calling out of school and long waits at the local hospital.

https://www.kniakrls.com/2021/09/14/pella-school-absences-remain-above-6-percent-long-wait-times-at-pella-regional/

According to the article the majority of those getting sick are unvaccinated, although it does not give their age. It does say that those who are vaccinated and getting sick are generally over 50.

It seems like this data is represented of the larger, global trends. So let me ask this question. Suppose ADE and AOS is actually happening. As far as I understand it this means we should expect two things,

1) A decrease in the effectiveness of the vaccine after an initial boost to immunity
2) Covid 19 should keep micro evolving so that it is less lethal but more transmissible to the unvaccinated

It looks like number 1 is happening but not number 2. Why is that? What am I missing?

[(Anonymous)]

ADE and/or OAS will show up as worse disease outcomes among vaccinated vs. unvaccinated people, which we are not currently seeing.

What we are seeing at this point is improved disease outcomes in vaccinated people coupled with a loss of vaccine immunity against infection and a strong uptick in cases in high-vax areas.

To me this is best explained by immune tolerance being induced by the genetic vaccines.

Mark L

[ecosophia]

That assumes that (a) we're getting accurate figures concerning what percentage of Covid cases are unvaxxed, and (b) that cases of ADE are being identified as Covid at all. I'm far from sure we can count on these (See Tunesmyth's post below for evidence that the latter may not be happening).

[(Anonymous)]

That's a good point.

At this point as possible contributing factors to vaccine harm we have:

--Acute and delayed adverse reactions to the shots (spike protein toxicity).

--Suppression of the innate immune system leading to increased severity of both covid and other infections (i.e. tolerance).

--Immune training to produce only one type of antibody with subsequent failure to adapt to new variants (OAS).

--Non-neutralizing antibodies directly increasing viral infectiousness as a result of waning immunity or viral mutation (ADE).

The trouble with using ADE as a catch-all is that it has a high likelihood of being technically wrong (or at least unprovable) and so it will be called out as false by the narrative managers.

We need a more general term for the phenomenon of vaccine-associated harm/death.

Mark L

[inavalon]

"We need a more general term for the phenomenon of vaccine-associated harm/death."

I have seen VEI (vaccine enchanced illness) being used for this.

[(Anonymous)]

Mark L I believe this is what Robert Malone has been referring to as VEI or VED, vaccine enhanced infection or vaccine enhanced disease. he has specifically stated there are other mechanisms than ADE, per se.

[open_space]

Oh this is fun.

How about immune and mental weirding, you know the same thing we are doing to the weather systems but in the microcosm instead of the outside world. Somehow this seems oddly appropriate for our age. Thing just stop making sense and there is a whole disconnect form everything and they just get weird.

Oh I got it, I think we should call it arreptia from the Latin arreptitius which means seized, possessed, raving mad and delirious. We can have two classes, both immunological arreptia and mental arreptia. If someone is completely taken over it would be panarreptia. If it ends up being caused by demons it could be panarreptia demoniaca

[methylethyl]

Pandemonium = demons all over the place.

There's got to be a way to make it all one word: pandemonarreptia?

[open_space]

I like it. If I were to be an occult doctor I would start the early draft to be publish on an alternative medicine journal. It would be titled:

21st Century Pandemonium: a comparative study of panarreptia, mass psychosis and self inflicted illness in the age of decline. A modern approach to sin and its repercussions on human health and well-being

[temporaryreality]

Oh my, I just realized that the beginning of the mainstream switch to "we need to discuss death WITH with covid as being different from death FROM covid" will simply further the vaccination campaign as they will then say "death WITH vaccine is NOT death FROM vaccine." It'll be like 4-layers of obfuscation at that point. :(

[temporaryreality]

I mean, I know they're already saying that, but it'll be set by precedent at that point.

[ahriman]

With regards to data quality: US data (I know, repeating myself) is poor. It helps if you get a better source, like English data. This is especially important if you want to get a signal as soon as possible.

With regards to ADE: It might take time to appear - if at all. Either from a mutation that is still to appear, from another coronavirus like OC43 - but which is still out-of-season or out-competed. Or even another type of virus.

At the end there is a tension here between short term analysis (and vaccines seem to be useful in the short term) and long term consequences. It simply might take time for some theory to be proven right.

[michaeliangray]

This is the big issue we will have. I doubt we will ever get accurate figures this side of the decade.

It is too much of a data rat-king nowadays to make heads or tails (heh!) of it all. I suspect it is part by design, part by incompetence.

[ahriman]

I think there might be a simpler explanation (see comment to the above): loss of antibody titers without long term memory being formed.


Note that immune tolerance can still be possible - but I think that will be seen, maybe, in the boosters.

[(Anonymous)]

Agreed.

The fact that we seem to be seeing *increased* transmission (beyond that expected by waning immunity alone) along with continued protection against immune-overreaction-mediated severe disease causes me to lean toward the tolerance hypothesis, but I realize I am in the minority at the moment with that perspective.

Mark L

On the front lines

[(Anonymous)]

What I’m seeing is increasing cases among the vaccinated but I can’t honestly say that I’ve seen any evidence of ADE yet; and believe me I’m watching carefully. The unvaccinated people I’ve seen are still much sicker overall and far more often needing high flow cannulas and Bipap. Still have yet to see a covid patient intubated and on a ventilator in the ED. I

Interestingly, about 10% of the currently hospitalized covid patients where I’m at aren’t hospitalized for covid, they’re hospitalized for other problems but just tested positive.

So that’s the latest from the front lines. In a few weeks I’ll be moving to a different state on the other side of the country, so I’ll see how things are going there.

Brother Josephus

[(Anonymous)]

The vaccine doesn't have to get less lethal if the vaccinations suppress the symptoms. It can get as lethal as it likes without inconveniencing its hosts, and then it can escape the vaccines later.

[ahriman]

No.

The 2 things you are mentioning are independent from ADE/AOS.

1. Decrease in effectiveness can be caused for other reasons. I am not an immunologist, but you can simply be losing short term immunity without having gained memory.
2. Number 2 is expected and seems to be happening. Look at reliable data (say English data). In any case it is not dependent on ADE/OAS - its evolutionary biology - vaccines or not.

[(Anonymous)]

I highly recommend this article from Karl Denninger: https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=243548

Although this cannot be conclusively determined to be an ADE or OAS event, it is illustrative of what it would look like, a sudden and quick crash in the condition of the patient. It might be buried in the comments following the article but Denninger says he has contacts at hospitals all over the country and is hearing more and more anecdotal stories of this nature.

[(Anonymous)]

Came across this today. A Dr. in Israel:

"HUGE statement by doctor in #Israel, discussing the different reactions to #Covid19:

“The unvaccinated have a shorter illness and often less severe, while the vaccinated have a lengthier infection, that goes on and on, and is more severe.”

https://twitter.com/FreedomIsrael_/status/1437968859135348738

[(Anonymous)]

That's in conflict with Brother Josephus' report here, but it's important because Israel is the global bellwether here. They vaccinated a majority of citizens 3 months ahead of the US and the rest of the world, so what they're seeing now is what we'll be seeing later this fall.

It's clear to me at this point that the vaccines do provide their recipients with a better covid outlook for 4-5 months due to high antibody levels, but if my tolerance hypothesis is correct - or if ADE/OAS starts to kick in with waning immunity and viral evolution - it is entirely possible that vaccine efficacy could go negative after that point.

Mark L

[(Anonymous)]

"It does say that those who are vaccinated and getting sick are generally over 50."

The age thing could be an artifact of waning immunity and vaccine timing. People over 50 were more likely to get vaccinated earlier, so if waning immunity is a problem, we'd see it first mostly in older people.